Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine

[Libertas]

Reaching out 1,500km (932mi) to slap Russian oil depot, and other depots in a couple other Oblasts inside Russia - https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/drone-strike-hits-russian-oil-depot-which-lies-record-1500km-ukraine

Tit for tat energy infrastructure targeting continues.

Not going well in Donetsk region though - https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/08/donetsk-onslaught-russians-approach-key-donetsk-center-pokrovsk/

Wonder what is next?

None of this would be happening if not for The Steal of 2020!   

[patentlymn]

From what I recall mostly in recent events.

Kiev govt had been trying to bring some countries to their side or at least more sympathetic. This included the so called global south, China, and India. This included recent statements that they were willing to negotiate or were in the process of secret talks with Russia (not true). I think they led China to act as a go between in recent talks with Russia. All this time they were planning Kursk. Whether right or wrong or smart or stupid this pissed off those parties they were courting. Especially China and India.

The western media is very controlled and pro Kiev but some of the global south is slipping way from Kiev. Kursk did not help Kiev in that regard. I think the largest village in the area attacked had 1000 people before the attack and no military significance. Shooting civilians in Kursk made it onto the news in some of the world. People walking, biking, or driving sedans. This was done much more in Mariupol but that did not make the MSM.

I heard that CNN reported from Kursk but did not scrub the NAZI insignia from their reporting. I saw that 1-2 of every 10 Kiev POWs captured in Mariupol had NAZI tatoos but that did not make the MSM news.

The Duran had some Russian official on. He said he is available to questions from the western MSM but only live so they cannot edit his responses. He never gets asked on.

[patentlymn]

Another PR  losing act by Kiev was to attack the Kursk nuke plant. This made the news in many places. The IAEA reported on this also.
Kiev apparently thinks that causing a nuclear accident will bring in NATO directly. They were shelling the Zap nuke plant. The IAEA reported on that but refused to say who was doing the shelling.

[Libertas]

From what I recall mostly in recent events.

Kiev govt had been trying to bring some countries to their side or at least more sympathetic. This included the so called global south, China, and India. This included recent statements that they were willing to negotiate or were in the process of secret talks with Russia (not true). I think they led China to act as a go between in recent talks with Russia. All this time they were planning Kursk. Whether right or wrong or smart or stupid this pissed off those parties they were courting. Especially China and India.

The western media is very controlled and pro Kiev but some of the global south is slipping way from Kiev. Kursk did not help Kiev in that regard. I think the largest village in the area attacked had 1000 people before the attack and no military significance. Shooting civilians in Kursk made it onto the news in some of the world. People walking, biking, or driving sedans. This was done much more in Mariupol but that did not make the MSM.

I heard that CNN reported from Kursk but did not scrub the NAZI insignia from their reporting. I saw that 1-2 of every 10 Kiev POWs captured in Mariupol had NAZI tatoos but that did not make the MSM news.

The Duran had some Russian official on. He said he is available to questions from the western MSM but only live so they cannot edit his responses. He never gets asked on.

How brave and diplomatic of them.

/

Seriously, a true diplomat shouldn't give a flying fornication about anything but peace if peace truly is the goal.  Anybody believing otherwise is an imbecile, an ignorant child or a liar.  I do not believe a just peace is in the interest of the Godless Communist Chinese (they are tied to Russia for good and ill, and are benefitting from war trade)...and India jumps one direction or another as it suits them best...they are the Turks of South Central Asia...

[patentlymn]

...
How brave and diplomatic of them.

/

Seriously, a true diplomat shouldn't give a flying fornication about anything but peace if peace truly is the goal.  Anybody believing otherwise is an imbecile, an ignorant child or a liar.  I do not believe a just peace is in the interest of the Godless Communist Chinese (they are tied to Russia for good and ill, and are benefitting from war trade)...and India jumps one direction or another as it suits them best...they are the Turks of South Central Asia...

I think China especially wants to be seen as a diplomatic player on the world stage. They chose their words carefully in their diplomatic "read outs."  They view diplomacy  seriously. The US diplomats say one thing one day then something different the next which  causes the Chinese to not take the US seriously. Plus the US govt has been openly saying they want war with China before China gets any more powerful. That means China will not break with Russia. Official US policy is that there is only one China and Taiwan is part of China.

There were 4 parties to the Minsk accords, Ukraine, Germany, France, and Russia. The first 3 later said the accords were never to be implemented but were a ruse to give Ukraine time to build up their military. After one such pronouncement, maybe from Merkle, the Chinese announced their displeasure with using diplomacy this way. There is an old saying that diplomats can lie to their citizens but not to each other.


The US state dept is so bad the CIA director Burns is functioning as the only adult in the room as a diplomat, his old job. He is welcome in China.

India does what is best for India.

The stated goal of the US has been to harm Russia. The benefit of Ukraine or Ukrainians is almost never mentioned.

[patentlymn]

...

How brave and diplomatic of them.

/

Seriously, a true diplomat shouldn't give a flying fornication about anything but peace if peace truly is the goal.  Anybody believing otherwise is an imbecile, an ignorant child or a liar.  I do not believe a just peace is in the interest of the Godless Communist Chinese (they are tied to Russia for good and ill, and are benefitting from war trade)...and India jumps one direction or another as it suits them best...they are the Turks of South Central Asia...

IF the story is true, then Kiev enlisted China in a back channel diplomacy with Russia saying they wanted to de-escalate at the same time they were planning kursk. This made the Chinese think they were jerked around and look silly and lose face. That is what pissed off the Chinese if the story is true.

Plus German tanks in Kursk (again) is a huge propaganda boost in Russia against the west.

[Libertas]

But I am to believe Communist China who is locked-in as a partner of Russia is serious about diplomacy?  Right, in so far as it benefits them.

But it's all blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda...

None of the participants and partners, none of the benefactors and beneficiaries of all of the above want peace.  That is a fact.  Or there would be "serious" diplomacy...

So...

More war...

Get used to it...

[patentlymn]

I was not talking bout peace but about diplomacy. Chas Freeman and Alistair Crooke can be found on videos but not on the MSM. They are examples of former diplomats. Burns was a diplomat now head of CIA. He does not run around shooting off his mouth with whatever comes to mind. Blinken and Sullivan are like immature teenagers.

[Libertas]

I was not talking bout peace but about diplomacy. Chas Freeman and Alistair Crooke can be found on videos but not on the MSM. They are examples of former diplomats. Burns was a diplomat now head of CIA. He does not run around shooting off his mouth with whatever comes to mind. Blinken and Sullivan are like immature teenagers.

So if you are not talking about peace and reaching any kind of accord then what need of diplomacy is there?  Diplomacy for diplomacy sake isn't anything...it's two monkeys eating a banana and smiling at each other...

Fracking utterly pointless...

 

[patentlymn]

I was not talking bout peace but about diplomacy. Chas Freeman and Alistair Crooke can be found on videos but not on the MSM. They are examples of former diplomats. Burns was a diplomat now head of CIA. He does not run around shooting off his mouth with whatever comes to mind. Blinken and Sullivan are like immature teenagers.

So if you are not talking about peace and reaching any kind of accord then what need of diplomacy is there?  Diplomacy for diplomacy sake isn't anything...it's two monkeys eating a banana and smiling at each other...

Fracking utterly pointless...

 

The US so called diplomats act in a way to shut down channels of communication to other countries. They are rude and insulting and erratic. Why is Burns dragged away from his CIA job all the time?  The Chinese have concluded there is no point to talking to the Americans and said so.  They have met with Burns on occasion.  Janet Yellen went to China and lectured them like some harpy-scold.

Before, during, and after the Cuban missile crisis there was constant communication between the US and Russia. JFK never called the Soviet premier a thug on public TV.

I do not know if the story of Kiev/US engaging China in negotiating with Russia while planning Kursk is true. If true, doing nothing would have been  better.

[patentlymn]

At some point, the Kiev govt may want to rely on diplomatic channels to do something. Maybe even with China again. It will not help if they have the reputation of being dicks. With the US and much of the west acting like children some other countries try to boost their reputations by filing the role of diplomats. The UAE has done things including acting as a go between in returning children to Ukrainian parents or others.

Speaking of diplomacy ....

The MSM does not report things well on these returned children. In part because the US and allies turned them very political. There were four specific examples I learned of. Two were when Russians were leaving a controlled area in a hurry as they did not think they could hold the area or did not want to expend the resources to hold it. In one case they feared that Kiev would flood the area by blowing a dam, which they did.

1. Russians were leaving the area in a hurry and there was a special needs boarding school. The kids were not orphans. The Russian soldiers could have abandoned the kids. Instead they withdrew the children along with any civilians that wanted to leave. The parents wanted their kids back. Russians said fine but because of trafficking they would not throw them into the wind. Parents had to come and get them which was a hassle. UAE helped return the children. The US said they were kidnapped.

2. There some similar situations with orphanages. Orphans no one wanted.. Some Russians in Russia adopted them. US said they were kidnapped. Kiev had been shelling civilians for 10 in places like Donetsk City creating orphans. Same result. Kiev said they were shelling "Russians" to drive them from sacred Ukrainian land.  When the kids were adopted they changed from "Russians" to" kidnapped Ukrainians."

3 Some parents in Ukraine sent their kids to nice Crimean camps then the SMO started. Parents were told they had to collect their kids in person. US said they were kidnapped or some such. I think UAE helped.

4. Parents in Ukraine areas not controlled by Kiev any more sent their kids to fancy music schools in Russia for a few weeks provided they qualified after auditions. Yale wrote some report, paid for by US DOD, that made these camps look real bad. BUT There had been video reports on these music schools so Yale and US looked kinda bad.

[Libertas]

I was not talking bout peace but about diplomacy. Chas Freeman and Alistair Crooke can be found on videos but not on the MSM. They are examples of former diplomats. Burns was a diplomat now head of CIA. He does not run around shooting off his mouth with whatever comes to mind. Blinken and Sullivan are like immature teenagers.

So if you are not talking about peace and reaching any kind of accord then what need of diplomacy is there?  Diplomacy for diplomacy sake isn't anything...it's two monkeys eating a banana and smiling at each other...

Fracking utterly pointless...

 

The US so called diplomats act in a way to shut down channels of communication to other countries. They are rude and insulting and erratic. Why is Burns dragged away from his CIA job all the time?  The Chinese have concluded there is no point to talking to the Americans and said so.  They have met with Burns on occasion.  Janet Yellen went to China and lectured them like some harpy-scold.

Before, during, and after the Cuban missile crisis there was constant communication between the US and Russia. JFK never called the Soviet premier a thug on public TV.

I do not know if the story of Kiev/US engaging China in negotiating with Russia while planning Kursk is true. If true, doing nothing would have been  better.

So, those diplomats have no wiles to deal with idiotic Western diplomats and their answer is to give up?

LOL

Appears playground antics not devoid in them, other side mean, I'm taking my marbles and going home... Waaaaa...  Sounds like whining leftist emotionally fragile and needy nitwits!

Like I said, real diplomacy doesn't give a damn about politeness...it cares about outcomes...

He called me bad name!

 

 

They're all children!

Look at Lavrov, all he does is complain...  So nice to have excuses for everything, means not having to do anything...

 

[patentlymn]

After lots of head scratching I cannot really Id the various factions in the Ujr war. I cannot determine what an  "ethnic Russian" or "ethnic Ukrainian" is or "Russian speaker" vs "Ukrainian speaker."  How would Zelensky and the top Ukr general be IDed in these ways?
I recall most of the professional class in Ukr spoke Russian and Ukrainian was seldom heard in Kiev but no idea what most spoke at home in Kiev. This says Ukrainian. I recall up until the 2014 coup education language was a matter of parental choice.

If you ask people who their grandparents were in Ukraine they are very much mixed

Various maps I found.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine




https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/03/13/the-ethnicities-of-ukraine-are-united/

The media has repeatedly shown this map by dividing Ukraine into South-East Russian speakers and North-West Ukrainian speakers. The source of this map is the 2001 census. It is important to remember that, when the census was conducted, every Ukrainian was asked to identify his “mother tongue.” Around 68% of Ukrainians answered “Ukrainian” and about 30% of Ukrainians answered “Russian.” By the way, Ukrainians who identified themselves as ethnic Russians constituted only 17% of the population.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/


2010 presidential elections

A contentious election in 2010 saw pro-Russia candidate and former Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych win with narrow margins over Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. Yanukovych won with strong support in the Eastern regions, with most regions in the West favoring Tymoshenko.

[paulh]

One, only one good reason we should GAF?

[patentlymn]

One, only one good reason we should GAF?

If you don't GAF then you don't. I ignore things I don't care about.

Every now and then I try to figure out sane reasons for the Ukr Ru war. I have given up for the Kiev faction.

I can understand why the US wants such wars, given the US published doctrines on weakening upcoming countries using proxies.
I can understand why Russia wants this war. Russia does not want a well armed hostile military alliance so close to Moscow along a previous path of attack. Also US previously and recently said Ukr would join NATO and in Feb 2022 refused to rule out putting nuke missiles in Ukraine.

I can't even tell exactly the difference between and ethnic Russians and Ukrainians for sure and it seems neither can they. It seems partly made up given their marriage patterns.

Why Kiev wanted this war never made any sense. The current professional classes in Ukraine often speak Russian better than Ukrainian. I think the leading generals and  president are native Russian speakers and prefer Russian in private. . So they pass laws outlawing Russian, seize library books from schools, and prevent parents from educating their kids in their native language. In places like Quebec and 21 of 22 Russian republics there is bilingual public education not psycho wars about this.

There were village clusters of mostly rural people speaking Ukrainian at home as their first language. More in the center and west than east. East was more heavy industry. The first political entity having borders and a capital named Ukraine was made by Lenin. I think returning diaspora have created an alternate history and they wanted war over a mythical ancient Ukraine. Seriously. What a crazy reason for a war.

I know enough history to  know that some very bloody wars were fought over religion. So Kiev creates a new sect of the orthodox church in 2019, arrests priests, seizes churches and gives them to the new sect. So an even crazier reason for a war.

[patentlymn]

Video clip of some local in his car ranting about the so called news saying the city was empty. Many people entering from outside.
What a stupid war.

https://t.me/myLordBebo/42845
🇺🇦🇷🇺 IMPORTANT:
“More than 50% of people stayed!”

Ukrainian resident of Pokrovsk says, that over half the city stays! The Russians are closing in and should soon storm the city.

But most people are fed up with Ukraine and are waiting for the Russians to arrive.

[Syzygy]

One, only one good reason we should GAF?

If you don't GAF then you don't. I ignore things I don't care about.
...

So,  answer Paul's question:  Why should WE GAF? 
And,  more importantly,  why do YOU GAF? 

We are well aware that you are a Putinophile and a Russophile as you have proven many times before and on more boards than this one.  Why?  And just for the record,  you'll never change anyone's mind here concerning either.  Give it a rest,  for gosh sakes. 

As W.C. Fields said,  "If at first you don't succeed,  try, try again.  Then give up--no sense making an ass of yourself."

Although,  you may have already passed that "making an ass of yourself" point long,  long ago.  Just sayin'.

[WilliamVA]

One, only one good reason we should GAF?

If you don't GAF then you don't. I ignore things I don't care about.
...

So,  answer Paul's question:  Why should WE GAF? 
And,  more importantly,  why do YOU GAF? 

We are well aware that you are a Putinophile and a Russophile as you have proven many times before and on more boards than this one.  Why?  And just for the record,  you'll never change anyone's mind here concerning either.  Give it a rest,  for gosh sakes. 

As W.C. Fields said,  "If at first you don't succeed,  try, try again.  Then give up--no sense making an ass of yourself."

Although,  you may have already passed that "making an ass of yourself" point long,  long ago.  Just sayin'.

Amen

[Libertas]

Yeah...

And, not to put too fine a point on it...you want to open the Pandora's Box of ethnic views...changing customs, norms, terms as a result of conquest in one form or another...

Well, that's just stupid.  Because a judgement call has to be made as to your biased favored point of time.  Like this BS about Ukrainian or Russian crap...

Some like to parrot to Putin interpretation of the Russian genesis and ignore the realities of the subjugation of minorities by Russians...because, well, hey...we Russians are the self-declared pre-eminent Slavs!  But, hey...go back further...the Rus arose in the modern-day Ukrainian area, Kievian Rus...wasn't Muscovite Rus until they left the area and conquered the latter area...go back even further - the Rus arose from the Norsemen (common vernacular the Vikings) of Scandinavia...so, in a true genesis analysis the Scandinavians have a greater land claim across Slavic lands than even Russia has!

See how fun this game is?  Yet some persist in playing it and favor one isolated in time winner!

It's like arguing with a rock...

Leave the rock alone!

[Libertas]

Russia wiping out newbies in the pipeline...and Ukraine begs to hit targets deeper in Russia...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russian-missile-strike-military-academy-ukraine-leaves-51-dead-over-270-injured

...meanwhile, Ukraine unleashes a fire-breathing drone...

https://www.zerohedge.com/military/watch-ukraine-unveils-terrifying-flame-thrower-drone-which-spits-thermite

...looks bullish for war porn enthusiasts.