Topic: Iron-Nickel PV Solar Company

[Weisshaupt]

Just found Iron-Edison who sells Nickel Iron Batteries.  These are far superior for Solar Applications, but at the time I was buying I couldn't find a supplier.  Obviously someone else found the same thing an decided to fill that niche ( Yea Capitalism!)   They import the batteries from overseas.
The main downside of Nickel Iron Batteries is the Size and Weight..  Otherwise they can be charged faster than Lead-Acid, they can be safely discharged to a (much) greater amount with no damage, and will basically last forever.  There is really no point in the future when you would have to buy new ones

So to give you an idea: I have a 48V set of 800 Amp Hr Hup Solar one Batteries.  They may be discharged to 80%  2000 times and will last with monthly watering for 20 years.   Normal discharge needs to be no more than 20-30%  if they are to last - meaning  I have an effective capacity of  170-250 Amp Hrs on a daily basis ( 170amps*48V =8.1 KW-Hrs)   and can  use 4X that in a pinch, if I am willing to sacrifice battery life to do it. Charging emits H2 gas which must be vented, and  I can suffer from sulfation and other problems unique to Lead-Acid batteries.  They use 8.6 Square feet of floor space ( 24 inches high) and weigh 2968 Lbs, and cost in the $12K range. (yeah, I know..)   (8KW-hr is enough to keep some lights on and run heating fans,  freezers and fridges for a day..  with PV Solar, the idea is that the solar handles the Daytime loads, and the batteries are just there to get you through the night.. so 8Kw-hrs is usually more than enough to get you through a night till the sun comes back up and recharges the batts and gives you power for other stuff.  Totally off-grid people always do laundry during the day ) 

The Equivalent 800 Amp hr  Nickel Iron system from Iron Edison would cost $30K.  It would use 31.8 sq feet of floor space ( 2 feet high) ( they sell a rack.. to double stack them..)  and weigh 5280 lbs. (wow)  But because I can safely discharge them 80% without damage and forever, they have an effective daily capacity of   645 amps-- or 30KW-Hrs.  Enough to run a house for a day and then some.  You probably don't need that unless you want it for Backup purposes - and even then its probably more than you need. (average house will use 15-20Kw-hr a day)  So if you size this for 8Kw-Hr of back up and plan to discharge to 80% - you need a 200amp-hr battery- NOT a 800 apm h-r battery.  Granted I have the option  with the HUP Solar One batteries to run for 4 days that way.  But if you sacrifice that,  a 200 AmpHR Iron-Nickel battery will work

A 200 Amp Hr Nickel-Nickel battery will run you $8000, use 7.4 feet of floor space (18 inches high) and weigh 920 Lbs.  AH. Much better.

However, I suspect that because the batteries are not manufactured inthe United States, they are not eligible for the RE  tax credit. 

They also seem to offer decent discounts in their package deals ...

Of particular interest to those here  should be the small generator alternative for $3.3K.  Its expandable, has 100 Ah of Nickel-Iron battery  storage, and will produce 1kw-hr  of power over the day.  So 80% of 100 is 80 Amp-hrs*12 v= 960 or just under 1Kw of power.. so the panels are sized to recharge the batteries and not provide a lot else.  Its basically a 1000 Watt, fuel-less generator.


For those of you with the small cabin or RV plan..  check out the 12 v package for $6.8K -- 12 V systems MUST  be located very close to the Inverter and batteries to prevent significant power loss in the cables. 300 amp-hr capacity Ni-FE battery and 2-2.5  Kw-Hrs of daily production.  This can also directly power any 12V systems you already have in the RV... you have 2.8 Kw-Hrs of storage capacity. Again the Array is sized to recharge the system,  and not power  provide power over that. 

But you have a house  - check out the Freedom Package   ( their packages are named freedom, independence, patriot.. I notice a pattern.. either they are preppers themselves, or hey did some market research and know who is buying these bigger systems..  but I suspect the former. You only care about the batts lasting forever if if plan to deal with a situation where you can't replace them)
The Freedom Package is a Grid-tie with backup - so you can still keep your connection to the grid, but you will not loose power during an outage ( most people don't understand that grid tie  means your power STILL GOES OFF even if the sun is out..)  It will produce 8-10Kw hrs a day - what most would need for "emergency" siutations - to keep freezers, fridges and fan running, as well as some lights, and small appliances. Batter is a 300amp-hr at 24 Volts, so about 5.7 Kw-hrs of effective storage capacity.  This is the smallest system I would suggest for a Home's backup power and it will set you back about $15K - some portion of which (at least half I would expect) will be Tax Credit deductible.  --

For a totally off-grid cabin look at The Independence Package for $28.5K - this is a full 48 V system ( the type Telcos and other industries use)  with 400 ah-hr battery backup.. so 15 Kw-hrs of battery capacity.  Enough for a day of backup in most homes with no battery recharging ( the sun don't shine) - and if you use a minumum of power that should keep your fridge, freezer, heater fans and pumps running for 2 days... Its a 4000 Watt array so between 16-20Kw-Hrs a day  - enough to run most normal houses.  The equivalent Grid-Tie package is the Patriot Package and runs $31.5K  and yes, this is pretty tempting to me. Govt tax break would be at least $8K on it.   ROI is bad but not as bad as you might think.. over 20 Years,  with the tax break, you are looking at about $100 a month. What is your electric bill now?  The system will last more than 20 years.. just not producing as much, and you have power - no matter what - over that entire span.


However  I prefer Outback inverters (the Cadillac of the industry)  - largely because they offer automatic gas/diesel/propane/nat-gas generator backup and they are a really tried and true product.  And oh, lookie, they  sell one...

The Outback Ni-Fe package runs $42.5 K and its the closest to what I have installed, bu it uses slightly higher capacity panels ( 24 of them) and  the newest Outback inverter.  It  has a 6000 watt array ( 24-30 KW-Hr ) daily production, and can provide over 8000 Watts of power through the inverter. (my current system can do 6000)  - and has a  600 Amp-Hr  48V battery for 23 KW-Hr  of battery storage (this is getting really close to being able to provide my 4 days of backup I have with the HUPs discharging them to 80%)  But yeah, its $45K by the time you get all of the other materials and have it installed... .. I would probably ask them for a custom package price with a smaller 300 amp battery and maybe only 4000 Watts of panels  but maybe not- once youstart running pumps 24x7 for aquaponics, you want that extra power..  .... But yeah, this is the one to get if you have the funds.  More than enough power, on or off grid, and it will last a good long time.  At least 20 years at full capacity and then diminished capacity as the PV  panels age..   As A ROI operation, this still sucks - with tax  breaks  its still over $150 a month over that 20 Year span. ( but conceivably it will go longer than that..) but still, that is the price of energy independence, and the writing is on the wall - Your electricity charges are going to go up and up during that 20 years.

[Libertas]

Wow, most of that went right over...or through...my head...the cost stuff I understand though.

I doubt my clan will ever go solar in my generation...the next generation or two, who knows?  By then maybe the prices go down and the capability goes up even more, since it is obvious from this info that the trend does appear to be going that way.  A top of the line system would be nice, maybe once the next generation starts drawing income we can get enough people going in.  But BOL is still fluid so for now all plans are on hold. 

Good info Weisshaupt, thanks for posting it!

[Weisshaupt]

Wow, most of that went right over...or through...my head...the cost stuff I understand though.
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I am happy to explain if you have any questions.  Really this doesn't get any more complicated than any electronics you were taught in high school, and the calculations are really of the "watch the units" kind. It doesn't get hard till you start trying to follow the damned Electrical code and have to start picking the right size wires with the right F'ing insulation in the right size conduit with the right size ground.... arrgh.  But you don't have to do that if you aren't going to have it inspected.

I doubt my clan will ever go solar in my generation...the next generation or two, who knows?  By then maybe the prices go down and the capability goes up even more, since it is obvious from this info that the trend does appear to be going that way.

I suspect that the lower panel prices are indeed temporary - and are caused by a the Stimulus glutting the market with panels there was no demand for.  Even if the economics of panel making have changed and they are much "cheaper" - their cheapness is still being measured in dollars. If we are right and what we fear comes to pass- At some point all prices will go up - especially on those things that require inputs from overseas ( rare-earths) - so Panels and  the electronics that make them viable. 

In the past 5 years Inverters have stayed at the same price or have gone up..   Panels are down around $300  ( or half!)   How long that lasts is  unknown, but given what we expect to happen, we know at some point 90% of anything anyone earns will go to food, the rest to fuel, and no one will be "saving" for those fancy things like PV systems like they have in the first world countries.

The older generation around me seems to be of the "all this will happen after I die" ,  "I will kill myself when it happens" , or "it will all work out somehow " variety and there is not one who will listen and do a damn thing.  Its all denial..  Or more accurately, they listen, maybe even admit there is a danger, and then still do nothing. Maybe you convince one of the Geezers to give you a "loan".. 

It   may not be a bad idea to buy something for yourself and F' the clan. Make them pay you back after the fact - ( every chore after Teotwawki you don't have to do is a chore you don't have to do) - and even if its gifted to the clan at a later date,  that still frees up Clan resources to purchase items, like medicine, rather than fuel.   

The only really viable alternative to solar I think would be a gassifier driven generator. You could weld one up pretty cheaply in an afternoon, but now you have to gather even more firewood, and it can't just be taken for granted.. you want power? Someone has to feed that fire, and it will be noisy. If you are trying to lay low, people will still hear that generator. But it will work..

Electric Power is going to be such a key survival factor, and will help you survive in so many ways , I think its short sighted to not do something. Think about what you use it for now - heat circulation in the home, Air conditioning ( how many elderly die each summer for lack of it?), pumping water, working indoor plumbing,  refrigeration/freezer - plus you can use it for aquaponics - and that's a food source, in a protected greenhouse... now what is that worth? I emphasized plumbing- because seriously, do you want to live without that? Without being able to wash your hands easily? To bathe easily? To take a dump without going outside?

Yes, you can ( and people did ) survive without it for centuries-- but one spoiled food product  can wipe out your clan,  lifting that bucket of water is a physical exertion that will kill  you as you age, the disease you picked up at the outhouse can do you in as well.  The time you save not getting water, or harvesting Ice for the Ice house is time you can use elsewhere.. and that is a survival advantage as well as a quality of life advantage.  Yes, its expensive.  But not as expensive as say,  your last used  car,  which you probably purchased without a lot of heartache and without a tax credit.

Assuming the clan will arrive a a cabin/house somewhere, that $15K "freedom package" would be enough to ensure you don't have to live without the basics. and the 30% tax credit makes it even more reasonable.  You can either give that $5-8K to Uncle Sam and have nothing to show for it, or you could purchase some energy independence with it. Even if the worst case doesn't come to pass, and we  assume a simple rise in energy prices of 6% ( real inflation as we see it now) and a cheaper KW rate like $0.08 ,  the ROI on the system is in the 20 year range. And I think 6% is a modest estimate given Obama's promise and increasingly successful effort to kill the Coal industry. If you have 10% inflation and a starting rate of a dime, you paid off the system in 15 years.  And that is a system with these top of the line "forever" batteries...(which are a huge part of the cost..probably close to half..)     I don't understand why the "clan" is having trouble with this concept..

[Libertas]

Hee, yeah...me and electricity cooperate only as much as we have to.  And yeah, crapping outside in winter not fun...beats not crapping at all though!

 

[Weisshaupt]

I actually inquired with the company.. the Batteries WILL count for the 30% tax credit.  So if it costs $16K total to install, you deduct $5K from your tax bill, and the system only effectively costs you $11K .. or if you prefer to think if it this way: $45 a month over the life of the system

[Libertas]

Assuming most all other financial obligations reduced/eliminated...that level of self-sufficiency is quite attractive, no denying that.