Author Topic: The tulip frenzy  (Read 2980 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline whimsicalmamapig

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
The tulip frenzy
« on: September 23, 2014, 08:51:57 PM »
I just listened to an ad on tv for the new package that will go with the new iphone6 yada-yada-yada and I got to thinking about the frenzy that as overtaken much of the world awaiting the release of this soon to be passe piece of IT technology and it brought to mind the frenzy that overtook Holland in the middle of the 17th century for possession of mutant tulip bulbs that served no purpose other than to "exist".

Not that the tech industry is the same type of financial bubble, but it was the inexplicable obsession by the citizenry for the tulip bulbs that could cost as much as 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman.  Today you can see welfare recipients waiting in line for days to purchase the new devices (the same as some do for the latest sneakers etc) with no regard to anything but obtaining the latest holy grail.

Is it inherent in human nature that we have an almost unattainable goal in front of us that keeps us moving on up the human ladder.
Not that attaining either a bulb or a phone would add to my enlightenment, but is it a genetic trait that pushes us to want to up-ladder our brothers, to be the first to reach the top of the mountain, to kill the most enemies in the battle, to reap the largest harvest.?

This may be true but how did we transfer what may have been an inherent benefit for our survival into a mindless pursuit of nothingness just for the sake of the hunt. Is this where humanity ends up when it cleaves itself from belief in a higher force as its motivation?

don't really know where this belongs so I picked general topics
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline AlanS

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 7908
  • Proud Infidel
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 09:21:59 PM »
I guess I'm programmed wrong. I just don't feel the need to have the latest and greatest in ANYTHING.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

Thomas Jefferson

Online Pandora

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 19530
  • I iz also makin a list. U on it pal.
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 09:34:09 PM »
I just listened to an ad on tv for the new package that will go with the new iphone6 yada-yada-yada and I got to thinking about the frenzy that as overtaken much of the world awaiting the release of this soon to be passe piece of IT technology and it brought to mind the frenzy that overtook Holland in the middle of the 17th century for possession of mutant tulip bulbs that served no purpose other than to "exist".

Not that the tech industry is the same type of financial bubble, but it was the inexplicable obsession by the citizenry for the tulip bulbs that could cost as much as 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman.  Today you can see welfare recipients waiting in line for days to purchase the new devices (the same as some do for the latest sneakers etc) with no regard to anything but obtaining the latest holy grail.

Is it inherent in human nature that we have an almost unattainable goal in front of us that keeps us moving on up the human ladder.
Not that attaining either a bulb or a phone would add to my enlightenment, but is it a genetic trait that pushes us to want to up-ladder our brothers, to be the first to reach the top of the mountain, to kill the most enemies in the battle, to reap the largest harvest.?

This may be true but how did we transfer what may have been an inherent benefit for our survival into a mindless pursuit of nothingness just for the sake of the hunt. Is this where humanity ends up when it cleaves itself from belief in a higher force as its motivation?

don't really know where this belongs so I picked general topics

Who, exactly, is this "we" to whom you keep referring?  We here are not "we"; the "we" is TWANLOC.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline whimsicalmamapig

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 09:35:42 PM »
I am not either, but many a member of our species does. Are they a throwback to the genetic imperative that brought us out of the jungle and onto the plains by an unquenchable desire to see what was on the other side of the mountain, around the bend in the river.

Whether they are or not is not what I am curious about, but how that desire was tempered in the past with cultural mores that controlled the "crowd" but is now just exhibited individually and with whatever repercussions that may ensue. 

My question is this: as a species, are we incapable of continuing our evolution without our predisposed need for divinity. Have the nihilists, the existentialists, the humanistic relativists set us upon a trajectory that will place us with all the other extinct species who were not able to  adapt to the environment in a way that kept them viable.  Did we take a wrong turn after the "enlightenment" by not realizing that not all members of the species are capable of living without direction.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Online Pandora

  • Administrator
  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 19530
  • I iz also makin a list. U on it pal.
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 09:48:48 PM »
I am not either, but many a member of our species does. Are they a throwback to the genetic imperative that brought us out of the jungle and onto the plains by an unquenchable desire to see what was on the other side of the mountain, around the bend in the river.

Whether they are or not is not what I am curious about, but how that desire was tempered in the past with cultural mores that controlled the "crowd" but is now just exhibited individually and with whatever repercussions that may ensue. 

My question is this: as a species, are we incapable of continuing our evolution without our predisposed need for divinity. Have the nihilists, the existentialists, the humanistic relativists set us upon a trajectory that will place us with all the other extinct species who were not able to  adapt to the environment in a way that kept them viable.  Did we take a wrong turn after the "enlightenment" by not realizing that not all members of the species are capable of living without direction.

You're not the we of us here?  O rly.  I don't understand. 

As for the rest, we call them they, otherwise known as Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen.  So, no, "we" didn't take a wrong turn but some did, TWANLOC.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 10:00:36 PM by Pandora »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 11:07:27 PM »
I am not either, but many a member of our species does. Are they a throwback to the genetic imperative that brought us out of the jungle and onto the plains by an unquenchable desire to see what was on the other side of the mountain, around the bend in the river.

Whether they are or not is not what I am curious about, but how that desire was tempered in the past with cultural mores that controlled the "crowd" but is now just exhibited individually and with whatever repercussions that may ensue. 

My question is this: as a species, are we incapable of continuing our evolution without our predisposed need for divinity. Have the nihilists, the existentialists, the humanistic relativists set us upon a trajectory that will place us with all the other extinct species who were not able to  adapt to the environment in a way that kept them viable.  Did we take a wrong turn after the "enlightenment" by not realizing that not all members of the species are capable of living without direction.

You're not the we of us here?  O rly.  I don't understand. 

As for the rest, we call them they, otherwise known as Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen.  So, no, "we" didn't take a wrong turn but some did, TWANLOC.

No, I think they CAN'T make the right turn. They are incapable. One third of the species out-evolved the other two-thirds and became rational actors. Rational actors will, almost by definition, want to make their own rational choices. The other two-thirds are tribal based herd animals.  The participate in a sort of group think - where the "leaders" are those who get the most "up-twinkles" for most providing a verbalization that pleases the herd. There is no philosophy. There is no moral code.  There is only the feral desire of the animal for the next succulent  meal. The next feel good sexual experience. The next stroking of the ego.  They will say and do anything to get it like any other junkie.  They don't care about the poor - other than as an excuse to convince others to give them their way- and more power. They don't care about ANY of the things they say they care about. Its all excuses and manipulation.  And its BUILT INTO THE GENE POOL. They can't accept personal responsibility for themselves, because they really don't have a self.  They have a tribe and that is their identity- it forms what they think, value and want. They don't understand us. They never will. Because they feel. They don't think.

 

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2014, 07:46:24 AM »
I am not either, but many a member of our species does. Are they a throwback to the genetic imperative that brought us out of the jungle and onto the plains by an unquenchable desire to see what was on the other side of the mountain, around the bend in the river.

Whether they are or not is not what I am curious about, but how that desire was tempered in the past with cultural mores that controlled the "crowd" but is now just exhibited individually and with whatever repercussions that may ensue. 

My question is this: as a species, are we incapable of continuing our evolution without our predisposed need for divinity. Have the nihilists, the existentialists, the humanistic relativists set us upon a trajectory that will place us with all the other extinct species who were not able to  adapt to the environment in a way that kept them viable.  Did we take a wrong turn after the "enlightenment" by not realizing that not all members of the species are capable of living without direction.

You're not the we of us here?  O rly.  I don't understand. 

As for the rest, we call them they, otherwise known as Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen.  So, no, "we" didn't take a wrong turn but some did, TWANLOC.

No, I think they CAN'T make the right turn. They are incapable. One third of the species out-evolved the other two-thirds and became rational actors. Rational actors will, almost by definition, want to make their own rational choices. The other two-thirds are tribal based herd animals.  The participate in a sort of group think - where the "leaders" are those who get the most "up-twinkles" for most providing a verbalization that pleases the herd. There is no philosophy. There is no moral code.  There is only the feral desire of the animal for the next succulent  meal. The next feel good sexual experience. The next stroking of the ego.  They will say and do anything to get it like any other junkie.  They don't care about the poor - other than as an excuse to convince others to give them their way- and more power. They don't care about ANY of the things they say they care about. Its all excuses and manipulation.  And its BUILT INTO THE GENE POOL. They can't accept personal responsibility for themselves, because they really don't have a self.  They have a tribe and that is their identity- it forms what they think, value and want. They don't understand us. They never will. Because they feel. They don't think.

Yahtze!

And yes, the solution really is that obvious, and yes it will come to that.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline whimsicalmamapig

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 08:00:52 AM »
You guys are dark, really dark.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 08:06:53 AM »
I would say realist, but...some folks see things differently than I...it is what it is...

It's not easy to un-see what has been seen...know what I mean?

IMHO the Enlightment did not go wrong...some people reinterpreted it wrong and like Cafeteria Catholics for example who choose only what they like and discard the rest...people discarded that which they should not have discarded and embraced that which they should not have embraced...

It's not my fault, I didn't make them thus!  The consequences of Free Will are not always pleasant or desireable...they just...are.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 10:33:09 AM »
And yes, the solution really is that obvious, and yes it will come to that.

Well, there is an obvious short term solution, and really,  we won't have to do much other than deny them aid (forcefully if required)
Its their bed,  we just have to make sure they lie and die in it.

The Longer term solution is much more difficult. I have seen enough evidence that suggests herd mentality has a genetic component and that set of genes is dominant.  It is our individualist - thinking - rational genes that are recessive.  I really don't think these herd animals really cognitively understand much of any of the civilization around them ( Electricity comes from the wall, its clean energy!) and they  have just learn to BS their way through by emulating civilized behavior ( for the most part.)  They  are like a Cro Magnon dropped suddenly in the modern world. They practice a paleolithic system of ethics evolved for  hunter-gather groups. They simply go mad in a world where they are isolated, dependent upon themselves with no tribal safety net, expected to make their own decisions without the group-think of the tribe , and basic needs are plentiful and easily met. They are unhappy because this environment is massively unnatural to them at a very basic level.  The idea that the berry bush is "mine" is beyond them - to them I am hoarding the berries for myself. The ideas of our founding - Individual rights,  personal responsibility, rule of law,  Limited government are simply outside their ability to comprehend.  They understand the individual is inferior to the tribe, that the tribe as a group is responsible for taking care of the tribe - which member  will benefit equally ,  that the strongest one rules, and he rules absolutely.  It is the only political system they can understand and therefore its the one one they are willing to accept. Our way of thinking and our values are completely alien to them.

Quote
Commander Adama: What awaits us out there is what troubles me.

President Adar: But surely you don't cling to your suspicions about the Cylons? They asked for this armistice. They want piece.

Commander Adama: Forgive me, Mr. President, but they hate us with every fibre of their existence. We love freedom. We love independence. To feel, to question, to resist oppression. To them, it's an alien way of existing they will never accept.

 The long term problem is that this is genetic --  the  free-loading herd animal will be born to the  freedom-loving individual and vice versa.  They want to eradicate the recessive gene - Mendel's recessive Green Pea.  We want to live free of the Yellow Pea dominant  free-loader dominant herd. ( I am emphatically NOT  talking about race here - . )  But no matter what we do, our genes are going to ensure we are born into mixed groups.

Its also probably not 100%  deterministic..  its a predisposition to herd group think and base desires-- just as American Indians have a genetic  predisposition to alcoholism.  These behaviors can be overcome.  Perhaps the freedom-loving genes just make that same predisposition easier to overcome. So the proper education and conditioning may help,  but it won't solve the problem... we will still have individuals among us that long for the safety and protection of the herd-- - who cannot be happy in our world.


 I have no doubt that the herd mentality was a survival trait for millions of years, and I have no doubt having a small number of thinking individualistic herd members that could adapt to new situations also aided a herd's survival.  But now, in the modern world- the complexity of which depends on individualistic specialization and effort -  the herd wants to force the individual freedom-lover into association with and service to them - All  other tribes are enemies - therefore if you are one of "us" you are one of "them" -  Fundamentally this is at the base of all of our conflict with them. They define their tribe and we must not only  accommodate it, but join and support it.   You must bake cakes for Gay people.  You must hire the right races and sex in  the right proportions.  You must pay the right wages. They simply cannot and will not accept any other form of societal organization. That is why any "diversity" is okay as long as its not ideological diversity.  The Animals have bleated and identified the other animals like them..

Ever feel like this in a group of liberals?

"You are NOT of the body!"


or like this?

SCREAM!! (Invasion of the Body Snatchers - Donald Sutherland)


Yeah. That.
They aren't willing to "coexist" and they will live and let live only so long as they are able to force you to live their way..The Coexist sticker is really an announcement of their genocidal ambition to be the Borg and  add your cultural distinctiveness - by forceful association- to   their own.



 Of course its not any individual  who does this ( they as individuals don't matter -)  the "tribe" decides via group-think and the "tribe" knows best.



This is also why they have no concept of force or coercion. They really don't understand the difference between a volunteer and a conscript, any more than the Borg do.  You are owned by the tribe. You are of the body.  Of course the body acts in unison, and the arms and legs move without complaint and resistance to the commands of the body. The very idea of individual choice is foreign and nonsensical to them.

We can't live with them.  We can't separate.   Even  if we gave them both resource rich coasts as their own to govern as they may-- what would happen? The free States would still do  better, and the herd states would go broke and fail , and the herd, in a greedy animalistic fit of envy , will declare that somehow the free states stole their prosperity from them, and they would start a war.

This cycle is going to repeat over and over.

Quote
Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as “bad luck.”

We had a 200 year run before bad luck overtook us this time.  Maybe next time we can do three-hundred.  Eventually, with star travel,  there will always be a New World - a New Frontier , and the individuals will always be on the edge of it. Always pushing a little bit further out, and only then will the problem be "solved" 

Quote
  Mal: I tell you, Zoë, we get a mechanic, get her up and running again, hire a good pilot, maybe a cook - Live like real people. A small crew - Those that  feel the need to be free. Take jobs as they come. They never have to be under the heel of nobody ever again. No matter how long the arm of the Alliance might get... we'll just get ourselves a little further.

Zoë Washburne: "Get her running again"?

Mal: Yeah.

Zoë Washburne: So not running now?

Mal: Not so much.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 10:52:05 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 11:46:28 AM »
Yes, well...regarding your genetic/deterministic and group think/desire...kind of what I was getting at in a higher philosophical level in my discarded/embraced comment above...at some point human kind could only advance by enlightened individuals who gained insight (granted by God, for instance) that enabled them to make key discoveries that made life better for all people, that that example was widely recognized by and adopted by individuals and was dominate even when they were active in whatever social/trade/religious herd they orbited within...and that that dynamic gained full enjoyment with our Founding, which IMO is the pinnacle achievement of The Enlightenment, and since then as the cultural changes and foreign un-American rot began to take hold the Enlightened/individualistic dynamic eroded traditional social/trade/religious bonds and created a multitude of competing often hostile sub-herds that predictibly allowed the ancient herd gene you mention reassert itself.  But that herd disposition I would argue is not the The True Nature of Man, if you accept the proposition the Good Book says "God created Man in His Own image" and accept the fact that the first Man and Woman were free of sin and therefor perfect at that point in the eyes of God...I don't think God intended Man to be a simple herd animal, if that were the case everything else that followed in the history of the Earth would have no meaning for Him, why bother?  In fact, God, in allowing Free Will, also allowed the incidence of sin and the loss of innocence to occur, but with that loss was insight into truth and self-determination and overcoming our faults.  Only an individual can achieve that, not a herd, therefor God must want us to be individuals and not dumb animals, right?  But libiots and their ilk want to be dumb animals, because a dumb animal has no concept of sin or right or wrong...they emote and react like animals...and they wish to make everyone animals and be part of the herd, because if they are not part of the herd they are judgemental and they believe in sin and wrong and evil...which really fricken interferes with base desires that need immediate gratification without any resistence possible!  So yes, there is no coexistence possible with these types, right?  How can there be, they deny us the very right to exist?  We can isolate ourselves from them all we want, they will find us, they will pester us and loot our lands and offend our people and consume everything up to the point of extinction.  If there is to be extinction it should only apply to those who contribute nothing and do nothing but consume resources tangible and intangible.

ETA - libiots/animals...Islaminals...all the same!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 11:50:46 AM by Libertas »
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2014, 12:00:05 PM »
But that herd disposition I would argue is not the The True Nature of Man, if you accept the proposition the Good Book says "God created Man in His Own image" and accept the fact that the first Man and Woman were free of sin and therefor perfect at that point in the eyes of God...I don't think God intended Man to be a simple herd animal, if that were the case everything else that followed in the history of the Earth would have no meaning for Him, why bother? 

Quote
Creatures, I give you yourselves," said the strong, happy voice of Aslan. " I give to you forever this land of Narnia. I give you the woods, the fruits, the rivers. I give you the stars and I give you myself.  The Dumb Beasts whom I have not chosen are yours also. Treat them gently and cherish them but do not go back to their ways lest you cease to be Talking Beasts. For out of them you were taken and into them you can return. Do not so. "

I would argue 70-80%  of Mankind reject gods gift and wish to return to being a Dumb Beast.
And I image there is a genetic predisposition that leans them that way. They are different from us.  Very different.
Varelse.

In fact, God, in allowing Free Will, also allowed the incidence of sin and the loss of innocence to occur, but with that loss was insight into truth and self-determination and overcoming our faults.  Only an individual can achieve that, not a herd, therefor God must want us to be individuals and not dumb animals, right?

I think Evan Sayet is right-- Liberals are trying- desperately -  to return to Eden.  They do not want that insight  ( and responsibility that come with it) and want to simply return to being innocent again. God certainly granted everyone free will. The liberals reject it.  Hell is turning your back to God. They will be like the Dwarves in the hut, unable to see they are in heaven.



But libiots and their ilk want to be dumb animals, because a dumb animal has no concept of sin or right or wrong...they emote and react like animals...and they wish to make everyone animals and be part of the herd, because if they are not part of the herd they are judgemental and they believe in sin and wrong and evil...[/url]

And God being kind and just gives them exactly what they want....

So yes, there is no coexistence possible with these types?  How can there be, they deny us the very right to exist?  We can isolate ourselves from them all we want, they will find us, they will pester us and loot our lands and offend our people and consume everything up to the point of extinction.  If there is to be extinction it should only apply to those who contribute nothing and do nothing but consume resources tangible and intangible.

And so the Bad Luck will continue. They will always outnumber us. Always.

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 12:31:19 PM »
"They will always outnumber us. Always."

Well, Weisshaupt, I guess that is the real reason behind the so-called high-capacity magazine bans and every other gun-grabbing fascist idea!

Still.  I like my odds of exceeding any arbitrary bag limit.   :D
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online ToddF

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5849
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 12:52:35 PM »
You guys are dark, really dark.

I blame the culture.  A culture in which so many have so little meaning to their lives, they'll camp out a week for a mere trinket.

 ::grouphug::

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2014, 07:12:03 AM »
You guys are dark, really dark.

I blame the culture.  A culture in which so many have so little meaning to their lives, they'll camp out a week for a mere trinket.

 ::grouphug::

Heh, I think there is an iSlam there!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online ToddF

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5849
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 08:26:15 AM »
Not this time, as iCrap isn't alone in attracting tards with so little of a life, they're camping out stores for a week to be The First.

That goes for anyone that's part of the cattle drive known as Black Friday Thursday.   ::dueling::

Offline Weisshaupt

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2014, 09:09:36 AM »
Not this time, as iCrap isn't alone in attracting tards with so little of a life, they're camping out stores for a week to be The First.

That goes for anyone that's part of the cattle drive known as Black Friday Thursday.   ::dueling::

Hey are the libtard against the "consumer culture"?
Oh right, if it weren't for the double standards...

Offline Libertas

  • Conservative Superhero
  • *****
  • Posts: 64044
  • Alea iacta est! Libertatem aut mori!
Re: The tulip frenzy
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2014, 11:26:14 AM »
Not this time, as iCrap isn't alone in attracting tards with so little of a life, they're camping out stores for a week to be The First.

That goes for anyone that's part of the cattle drive known as Black Friday Thursday.   ::dueling::

Hey are the libtard against the "consumer culture"?
Oh right, if it weren't for the double standards...

Yeah, that.

It is well established that libiots do not experience cognitive dissonance...probably because they have shyt for brains anyway...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.