Author Topic: I've learned something about liberals today.  (Read 727 times)

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Online AlanS

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I've learned something about liberals today.
« on: July 21, 2016, 11:04:21 AM »
On the Harley forum I'm on, there are liberals. I know, it's odd to me, too. But there's one in particular. A lawyer. I know you're as shocked as I was.

But I digress. We were having a debate and I posed the question about which side wants smaller government. He then posts this chart.



I'm looking at the chart and see Nazism and Fascism as right wing. In my definition, the right wing of government wants SMALLER government, which Nazism and Fascism don't come close.

So I asked him again, which side wants smaller government. This was his response.

Quote
Both. Neither. it doesn't matter. That is not what defines them.

At the extreme ends, the right is the bigger government and the left has none. Those are also the extremes where you get slavery regardless of ideology. Slavery of no government and slavery of intrusive government.

In the middle, where you have the best chance of freedom, the difference in size of government is not significant and also not the distinguishing feature.

It was then it dawned on me. He really is clueless to what it means to be conservative. I know. I'm a slow learner. I can't help it if I'm a former short bus window licker.
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 11:47:01 AM »
On the Harley forum I'm on, there are liberals. I know, it's odd to me, too. But there's one in particular. A lawyer. I know you're as shocked as I was.

But I digress. We were having a debate and I posed the question about which side wants smaller government. He then posts this chart.



I'm looking at the chart and see Nazism and Fascism as right wing. In my definition, the right wing of government wants SMALLER government, which Nazism and Fascism don't come close.

So I asked him again, which side wants smaller government. This was his response.

Quote
Both. Neither. it doesn't matter. That is not what defines them.

At the extreme ends, the right is the bigger government and the left has none. Those are also the extremes where you get slavery regardless of ideology. Slavery of no government and slavery of intrusive government.

In the middle, where you have the best chance of freedom, the difference in size of government is not significant and also not the distinguishing feature.

It was then it dawned on me. He really is clueless to what it means to be conservative. I know. I'm a slow learner. I can't help it if I'm a former short bus window licker.


Well there are many different axis that can be used to measure political ideas as part of a spectrum  - Fiscal Policy and  personal freedom being the most popular.

But this chart does neither-- and I would ask what  variable he thinks is changing as you move along the axis.


And if he thinks that chart makes sense as it is  then you  need him to explain the variable being measured and how it changes as you move along the axis.  You should open with that. Just pretend to be stupid-  liberals LOVE  explaining sh*t to you because they are so smart.. - and then ask him to explain something he can't. Like his own  F'ing chart.

If he refuses, double down and  point out that a monarchy's polices are based on the personal polices of the monarch.  Its inclusion on this chart  demonstrates that this spectrum line is NOT about polices  undertaken or a belief system  , but merely about the system of government advocated - who is in charge and makes the decisions, and how its claims its powers  to be legitimate. 

SO we have American conservatives  advocating for a Limited Constitutional Government with a separation of powers and both elective and appointed elements which derives its legitimate power from the Consent of the Governed   and progresses directly to a Dictatorship that derives its power from a claim that GOD put this man on earth to lead.  We have Liberals ( who laughingly are separate from Socialists - You can also have fun asking how Socialist and Democrats differ) who basically believe in full democracy and majority rule - with the claim that  the common good trumps the rights of the individual. But they still want enlightened elites ( a master race)  to step in and override populist decisions  when they don't conform to their ideology - Like overriding the Gay Marriage sentiments or same sex bathroom sentiments of the nations.
 The NAZIs inscribed around every Reichsmark coin. "Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz" ("The community comes before the individual")  And consequently justify their power on the SAME BASIS as Liberals do including the idea that a master race of enlightened individuals must  control the lesser races. ,
 
As you progress further  left,  the more the  special elites are guiding the population because they are better - smarter, more moral , etc,   till you end in monarchy - where a single man rules by  as most fit by the will of God, Creation, the universe or whatever.

To the right of Conservatism would come anarchy. Conservatives believe in LIMITING government power by the consent of the governed - meaning the locus of power shifts from the Group being right ( liberals)  to the individual ceding some of his power to a government by consent..   and Anarchist believe there is no such thing  as a legitimate government  and each individual is sovereign. 

And after you tell him that  remind him that just because he finds a chart doesn't mean that the chart is true or makes sense. Also point out  that the "conservative party" in Germany wanted to restore the monarchy, so point out that whatever moron  made the chart obviously conflated the two in his stupidity and was obviously is unaware that conservative means different things in different countries depending on what Status quo they wish to conserve..



And then ask him about  that other common axis - personal freedom. He admits in his response that such freedom is desirable because he is looking for the "best chance at it" - and yet he supports a side that supports the tyranny of the majority. They don't support a limited government ( and if he says he does counter with asking him to show you in the constitution where the Federal government was granted the power to do Obamacare, welfare social security)  or where it grants justices  the power to change The Constitution  when needed  rather than simply interpret it (  you will get the "malleable word" argument and then you have to engage in fair reading. If your mortgage says " 3 percent"  is it a fair reading if a judge says it really means 5% ? If not, then how is something that reads "penalty" also become a "tax"  _ there are limits to what a word means - and  te government is only legitimate under informed consent - if the people signing  the document understood a word to mean one ting, you can't legitimately expand that definition, or twist the rods to mean something else. Then cite Blackstone's rules for legal interpretation which have been the standard since the 1600s.

Ask him to give you a list   according which systems allow the most Personal   Freedom and exercise of Individual rights. "Smaller Government"  implies this, but with libtards you really have to be as blunt and in their face with the idea as possible.

And then you can  take the policy angle and ask him to list the policies and ideas that the  modern American conservatives have in common with Monarchists, Nazis or Fascists.

Nazis and Conservatives are both "nationalists" in that they put the good of their own citizens above the good of non-citizens, and that includes deportation of law breaking aliens - but not as Hitler's party suggested - ALL aliens. And there the similarities end. 

the second word in Nationalialsozialist, is Socialist.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm

Nazis supported Gun Control, Universal Heath care, universal education including college including indoctrination into NAZI ways of thinking,  State promotion of healthy diet and exercise the abolishment of unearned income ( income from interest or owned property) , nationalization of trusts, confiscation of war profits, profit sharing in large industry, increase in old-age pensions, the seizure of land from the rich,  abandoment of laws that "serve a materialist ordering of the world" , the persecution  of anyone not serving the common good or press publishing "lies" as determined by the State , and Religious Freedom where the religion does not conflict with the State ( say by forcing people to bake cakes for Gays)

Also note that these 25 points include the phrase "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD "

And then ask him to compare and contrast the NAZIs  with  the liberals and Democrat platform and then tell you which the NAZis have more in common with. If he balks, and he will,  remind him that compare and contrast is an exercise they start having kids do in the 1st grade.

I know its work to respond to this guy and that you will NEVER convince him. But others watching the conversation in the forum will see it, and it might change some minds or at least encourage some to look a little deeper or deepen their own convictions. And this really is an easy one to win - He can't defend his own chart , and he can't do the compare and contrast exercise without his brain exploding.   

Please plagiarize freely from the above to WHACK this asshole and remind him to keep talking about Harleys because he is an ignorant libtard. Plus it will feel good. 




« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 12:14:41 PM by Weisshaupt »

Online AlanS

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 02:36:15 PM »
I've already covered about half of that. If I get more retarded retort, I'll resort to the other half. ::thumbsup::

Thanks.
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Online ToddF

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 04:05:00 PM »
You're living in a world that demands a 2 dimensional chart to tell you where you are.  One that tracks the size of government and personal freedoms.  The tiny mind of an Obama voter can only handle 1 dimension.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 05:05:25 PM »
How on earth does one get from total government (communism) to no government (anarchy) in one step on a chart?

That chart SHOULD read: Communism/Nazism/Fascism/Monarchism (all totalitarian), Socialism, Liberalism, Conservatism, Libertarianism, Constitutionalism, Anarchy.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Online IronDioPriest

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 05:07:26 PM »
Hey Alan, show the dickwad this graphic, and report back.

"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Online AlanS

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 08:44:54 PM »
Hey Alan, show the dickwad this graphic, and report back.



THAT, my friend, has ALWAYS been my take on government. When the Hell did the world change? I did a search today and just about everything I've found agrees with his philosophy. I must have made missed the memo.

And actually he ended up agreeing with me. But he's still a card carrying liberal.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 09:06:47 PM by AlanS »
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

Thomas Jefferson

Online Alphabet Soup

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 08:59:41 PM »
That chart is all F'd up. It's like trying to describe a four dimensional world in two dimensions. You get a picture, but it's distorted and not at all accurate.

When I was a kid (teens) I was an anarchist. An anarchist doesn't respect rules or boundaries. I really was a snot. As my brain started to grow in I recognized the obvious necessity of some laws. In an epiphany I saw that there was a "sweet spot" somewhere between having no laws and imposing a law for every contingency.

The rational part of my brain sought the sweet spot and, Lo! I discovered my conservative roots. I didn't make the quantum sweep from far left to far right - it was in reality only a small side-step from my current path.

Another example - the canard about Nazism, Fascism, and the rule of Adolf Hitler. I argue with the leftards all the time about which side is in league with the Nazis and the Fascists. They feeeeeeel that both are far-right ideologies but when you dissect them you realize that this is far from true. Both ideologies lean toward totalitarianism - the imposition of total rule. Who does that sound like - the "small-government conservatives or the big-government nanny-state left? When we talk of "taking from you for the good of the masses" are we describing the typical remarks of a rightist or a leftist (like Hellery)?

Of course one must of necessity differentiate between the conservative and the republican - they are not necessarily the same thing at all. Also, people mistake having a respect for the rule of law with being authoritarian.

It's better to recognize that both leftist and rightist ideologies contain elements of classic liberalism, appeal to power, collectivism, socialism, and fraternalism/cronyism. When kept in check they are relatively harmless (a fire department can be viewed as a socialist enterprise for example). When carried to extremes they kill people.

Hitler wasn't a Socialist, a Fascist, or a Nazi. Those were simply the mechanisms he employed to keep control over the people. Hitler was a authoritarian - not unlike Øbama but much smarter and far more successful. Trump has a streak of authoritarian in him but he keeps it in check. Hellery isn't so much an authoritarian as she is a criminal thug - like Benito Mussolini.

I hope that she meets the same end.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2016, 09:02:42 AM »
And actually he ended up agreeing with me. But he's still a card carrying liberal.

What exactly did he agree with?  We knew from the outset that you wouldn't change his mind - its impossible. I think most of them know they are fascists at heart, and really are fine with that fact - because how else is the greater good going to be achieved with knuckle dragging morons like us about?

But if you shamed him into concentrating on his Harley and keeping his trap shut on politics,  then mission accomplished.

Offline Libertas

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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 09:23:20 AM »
Even the better chart is lost on a libiot...I would only answer with a 2x4 to the noggin.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:57:53 AM by Libertas »
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Re: I've learned something about liberals today.
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2016, 04:50:11 PM »