Topic: The Cultural/Politcial Divide

[Weisshaupt]

An Excellent article on the cultural and political divide

only one nit-pick:

The principles that the progressive form of liberalism thought it had discovered were much like those that more conservative liberals believed society had arrived at through long experience: principles of natural rights that define the proper ends and bounds of government. Thus for a time, progressive and conservative liberals in America — such as Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine on one hand and James Madison and Alexander Hamilton on the other — seemed to be advancing roughly the same general vision of government. But when those principles failed to yield the ideal society (and when industrialism seemed to put that ideal farther off than ever), the more progressive or radical liberals abandoned these principles in favor of their utopian ambitions. At that point, progressive and conservative American liberals parted ways — the former drawn to post-liberal philosophies of utopian ends (often translated from German) while the latter continued to defend the restraining mechanisms of classical-liberal institutions and the skeptical worldview that underlies them.

Our original founders were in general agreement on these principles until their dying day. These dichotomies really didn't appear in our politics until the Civil War.
I am far more likely to quote Jefferson or Madison  or Paine in defense of Constitutionalism and Limited powers than I am to quote Adams or Hamilton, and to imply  Jefferson and Madison to be  on different sides of this debate is almost ludicrous.  Yes the founders fought over the boundaries of powers - is a bank neccessary  to the managment of commerce?  They fought over the nature of man ( Jefferson's natural aristocracy of merit (which may be a forebearer of technocracy) vs. Adams "all men are jerks"  philosophy etc)  But at no time did they really argue over the checks and balances of the system agreed to, nor the goals of that system- namely the preservation of individual liberty.

But other than that an excellent and very thoughtful article.

[charlesoakwood]

I thought Hamilton was a monarchist.

[Weisshaupt]

I thought Hamilton was a monarchist.

He was accused of being one by political opponents ( because there was nothing nastier that could be said about an American in those days) , and he certainly was comfortable with the Fed having more power (including that of having a bank )  but I have yet to read anything that actually would prove he wanted a hereditary aristocracy for America. Given his somewhat humble childhood, he would be disqualified from particpating even if he did want such a thing. Adams was accused of the same.  Once you actually read the writings of these men, a lot of what they told you on school doesn't fit in the neat boxes they gave you for them.

[Alphabet Soup]

Jefferson accused Washington of attempting to set up an monarchy. He went so far as to purchase newspapers (notably the Aurora) precisely to smear his opponents.

[Sectionhand]

Suggested reading : "Washington , A Life" by Ron Chernow ( Penguin Press 2010 )

[Libertas]

Suggested reading : "Washington , A Life" by Ron Chernow ( Penguin Press 2010 )

Good book!   

I would also recommend - David McCullough's "John Adams" and "The Adams-Jefferson Letters" edited by Lester J. Cappon.  You get a better picture of the Federalist/Republican debate.  I also have Ellis' book "American Sphinx" on Jefferson, not a huge fan of his, but there is some worthwhile info to cull from the book.  Adams & Jefferson had a lot more in common than people think, they were victims of their own faction (being the nominal heads of each) as well as their own ambitions.  Both believed in a meritocracy, one could easily translate that into support of the productive vs the unproductive (one can throw Franklin into that mix, his feelings on institutional/forced charity being what they were [read Poor Richard's almanac!]) and most Founders would have major issues with the politicians of today and no doubt recoil in horror at what the current Regime has wrought!  And the OWSer's would have been put in pillories for their idiotic behavior!

PS- I will echo Weisshaupt's incredulity over the charge that Jefferson & Madison were of different minds, it is ridiculous!  Madison was a protege of Jefferson and carried much of his water in congress before attaining the Presidency for himself.