Topic: Building a top-burn (upside down) fire

[Pandora]

http://www.chiefchimney.com/fireplaces/upsidedown.pdf

[Libertas]

Do I have to stand on my head to see it burn the right direction?

 

[Pandora]

Yah, just you, Libertas.   

Another, better demonstration c/o ppitman.

http://woodheat.org/top-down-steps.html

[IronDioPriest]

As I was reading I assumed that this is only effective in a closed space like a fireplace or stove. That seems logical, since heat rises, you'd think that a requirement of this method would be trapping that energy enough to build its volume inside the space and eventually force it downward.

But then I read this...

"Chris built a glorious top-burn bonfire at his state chimney-sweep guild's summer '93 workshop. Four feet square at the base and five feet high, it burned all night."

Having built and maintained hundreds of campfires in my life, I'm having a hard time visualizing how this could work. But my curiosity is piqued. I'll have to give that a try sometime.

[Libertas]

I think it is a "size matters" issue for outside fires IDP, if I tried that in my standard sized pit at the lake I bet it fizzles out.  Maybe you could build it better, but at some point embers have to be created to keep the thing going.  I can see where and enclosed space would work, it is not so different than what my folks had to do back in the day when they "banked" the furnace for the night, it was all about the proper arrangement of coal to get it to burn even and thus throughout the night.

[Pandora]

As I was reading I assumed that this is only effective in a closed space like a fireplace or stove. That seems logical, since heat rises, you'd think that a requirement of this method would be trapping that energy enough to build its volume inside the space and eventually force it downward.

But then I read this...

"Chris built a glorious top-burn bonfire at his state chimney-sweep guild's summer '93 workshop. Four feet square at the base and five feet high, it burned all night."

Having built and maintained hundreds of campfires in my life, I'm having a hard time visualizing how this could work. But my curiosity is piqued. I'll have to give that a try sometime.

Well, it works excellently in the insert.  Further, there was so little of the usual smoking from the kindling at the beginning, I was able to leave the door open to give it a little more air.  That is why I believe it will work just fine outside; there's plenty of air upon which to draw.

[Pandora]

Still burning well, no more wood added.

[Glock32]

Very interesting stuff. There are two practical skills I need to improve on: fire building and knot tying. Just knowing which type to use in what situation makes a huge difference.

[Pandora]

As of now have added two largish pieces of wood and it's still going.

 

[Pandora]

As of now have added two largish pieces of wood and it's still going.

 

Status report:

Seven hours later, just burnt down into glowing goals.  Originally used two big splits, four fat boys, four little fat boys and five small boys and a handfull of kindling.  Added two splits to get here.  I'd say it works fine.

Started with less kindling and paper than the tee-pee style and with less smoke to get it started.

[trapeze]

I am too lazy for this technique. I throw a few pieces into my QuadraFire and then light off a fire starter (paraffin and sawdust) square and toss it in. That almost alway does the trick. For me, it's just a matter of starting with a clean stove (empty the ashes) and dry, light wood like aspen or pine. After the fire is hot enough then I throw in the heavy stuff which, in my case, is oak. As long as I have properly seasoned wood to start with there is no trouble. The QuadraFire is a pretty efficient stove so it burns a long time (especially with the hardwood) with very little creosote. Plus, nice glass door so I can see it all the time.

I really like the option to light a fire during the winter. It saves a lot in gas consumption. The only things I don't care for are wood collection (I always get my own) and ash disposal. Wood collection is time consuming and ash disposal is just a pain in the ass in general.

[Alphabet Soup]

OK, I tried it. (should I leave off there? Nah!)

I can make fire happen anywhere, anytime. My folks feared that I would turn out to be a pyromaniac (I once set the house on fire).

I set it up in the Lopi stove I use to heat my whole house and lit it off. I got busy on another task for a few minutes and when I came back noticed that it had happily burned through all of the kindling....and promptly burned out.

I set it up again with pretty much the same results (a little better but not what I was expecting). I fiddled with it and made it into a fire and it was good for the rest of the night.

I guess my preference is an upside-down upside-down fire. Borrowing from the basic principle that you have to raise materials to the combustion threshold before you can have fire, I build my fire exactly the opposite of the illustration starting off with the kindling. As it ignites and burns it raises the temperature of the larger pieces and induces them to burn, which in turn fuels the even larger ones.

Perhaps it is the wood I am using. I have access to (very) seasoned cedar and spruce 4x6 which I cut into 15" lengths. Combine that with cedar kindling and I have  a nice moderate heat, moderate duration fire. I do have to feed it more often than when I use a mixture that includes hardwoods, but the wood is free so I don't complain.

I'll try it again tonight and see if (I) can teach an old dog a new trick.

[Pandora]

OK, I tried it. (should I leave off there? Nah!)

I can make fire happen anywhere, anytime. My folks feared that I would turn out to be a pyromaniac (I once set the house on fire).

I set it up in the Lopi stove I use to heat my whole house and lit it off. I got busy on another task for a few minutes and when I came back noticed that it had happily burned through all of the kindling....and promptly burned out.

I set it up again with pretty much the same results (a little better but not what I was expecting). I fiddled with it and made it into a fire and it was good for the rest of the night.

I guess my preference is an upside-down upside-down fire. Borrowing from the basic principle that you have to raise materials to the combustion threshold before you can have fire, I build my fire exactly the opposite of the illustration starting off with the kindling. As it ignites and burns it raises the temperature of the larger pieces and induces them to burn, which in turn fuels the even larger ones.

Perhaps it is the wood I am using. I have access to (very) seasoned cedar and spruce 4x6 which I cut into 15" lengths. Combine that with cedar kindling and I have  a nice moderate heat, moderate duration fire. I do have to feed it more often than when I use a mixture that includes hardwoods, but the wood is free so I don't complain.

I'll try it again tonight and see if (I) can teach an old dog a new trick.

I wouldn't have been surprised to find the same initial result -- the kindling burning and then going out -- but the whole shebang got going right away, as "advertised".  Building the usual way required a lot more paper and kindling to get going -- I'm too stubborn to use the "Firestarter" blocks; feels like cheating.  

We've got a lot of oak, some elm, and some poplar, and all of it has been drying out for some time.  (No pine, it mucks up the chimney.)  Most of it came from right on our property; a few of the oaks had to come down as they were dying from the inside.  Healthy trees, I have found, regularly sacrifice limbs for the good of the whole, and this stuff all free for the small amount of labor in gathering and breaking up.  Even for kindling, all it takes is a stroll around the place to pick up what's fallen since last time.  We've a lot of wooded area and Mother Nature is messy.

Since we got the insert, I have found my own inner pyromaniac.  

eta:  I do have a trick of sorts.  Instead of throwing the t.p. and paper towel rolls in the recycling bin, I stuff 'em with paper and use them to fire up the kindling instead of just balled-up paper.

[Alphabet Soup]

One of the games I play is to see how long I can go (how many fires) on a single match. I have a worn gasket on the door of my stove so currently my score is close to 1=1 (no matter how I dampen it the fire gets too much air and burns itself out).

And I'm too Scot to use firestarter - but I have no problem burning newspaper.

[trapeze]

Well, I am a Scot (by heritage) which, for me, means "more power." So, yeah, I use a firestarter to light off my stove. You should see what I use to deal with a pilot light...

[Pandora]

Well, it works very well outside, too.  Built it in a smallish fire-pit and used a FireStarter and it burnt with very little smoke.

[Libertas]

I'll have to try this in the fire pit some time, you're making it look easy Pan.

 

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

I'll have to try this in the fire pit some time, you're making it look easy Pan.

 

I witnessed this. It was impressive. And relatively smoke-free....except for the fact many of those enjoying the fire were smokers of various tobacco products it looked relatively smoke-free!

[Pandora]

I'll have to try this in the fire pit some time, you're making it look easy Pan.

 

I witnessed this. It was impressive. And relatively smoke-free....except for the fact many of those enjoying the fire were smokers of various tobacco products it looked relatively smoke-free!

 

Unlike a certain someone who had difficulty keeping his own cigar lit .......