Author Topic: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash  (Read 2251 times)

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Online Pandora

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... NTSB arrived Sunday .... to begin a formal investigation into why the Boeing 777 plane from South Korea crash-landed into the runway ....

Quote
Asiana Airlines Flight 214 slammed into the runway on Saturday morning, breaking off its tail and catching fire before slumping to a stop that allowed the lucky ones to flee down emergency slides into thick smoke and a trail of debris. Firefighters doused the flames that burned through the fuselage with foam and water, and police officers on the ground threw utility knives up to crew members so they could cut the seat belts of those who remained trapped as rescue crews removed the injured.

I wonder if a sharpened credit card could do that ......



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Asiana Airlines Flight 214 San Fran air traffic controllers recordings...

Asiana 214 KSFO Crash Landing ATC


Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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... NTSB arrived Sunday .... to begin a formal investigation into why the Boeing 777 plane from South Korea crash-landed into the runway ....

Quote
Asiana Airlines Flight 214 slammed into the runway on Saturday morning, breaking off its tail and catching fire before slumping to a stop that allowed the lucky ones to flee down emergency slides into thick smoke and a trail of debris. Firefighters doused the flames that burned through the fuselage with foam and water, and police officers on the ground threw utility knives up to crew members so they could cut the seat belts of those who remained trapped as rescue crews removed the injured.

I wonder if a sharpened credit card could do that ......





Oh my. That IS scary. Disarmament of the law abiding ALWAYS has a price.  Would those two who died be alive if those around them had been armed with a knife to cut them free? We may never know, but even if that was not the case here, how easily it could be is obvious now.  I do not think safety lies in disarming EVERYONE so only the bad guys can have weapons. It lies in knowing that if you go into a group of Americans to kill, they are so well armed and so prepared that you WILL die, before you get hardly any of us. And tthen we are going after those who worked with you, those who supported you, those who knew and said nothing.......and then we might even get a little vengeful after that, so no one will ever dare do evil to an American again.
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charlesoakwood

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The girls could have been ejected out the tail section when it broke off.

Amateur video of Asiana flight 214 crash at San Francisco International Airport


Offline Glock32

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The two girls' bodies were found on the runway, so it seems probable that they were ejected during the crash when the tail section came apart.
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Online Libertas

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Last I heard there was just one person unaccounted for, right?

I cannot believe so many survived this crash, truly amazing, surely the Almighty was looking over a lot of people.

And I cannot think of why the landing failed...they say the nose came up after tail impact...but did it?  It is obvious the tail did hit and break off.

I can only speculate to three possibilities for this: 1) pilot error 2) some sort of system failure (electrical/hydraulic) or 3) or engine failure/stall.

We'll have to see what the black boxes have to say.  But the good news is so many survived.  Prayers to those in critical condition and the families and friends of the girls lost and the injured.   ::praying::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Check the video above, it's not quality by any means but you can see the tail come off and the plane do very close to a cartwheel.  It's easy to see how the one witness thought it turned upside down.   There will be more video to come.

ps: The nose doesn't slam after the tail hits and it looks like the plane is over ground when the tail hits.  There's three flare plumes, I figure one from the port engine the other two...

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Agreed, a cartwheel not a flip...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Quote
Official probes if rescuers ran over San Francisco plane crash victim

 FRESNO, Calif. -- Pilots of Asiana Flight 214 were flying too slowly as they approached San Francisco airport, triggering a control board warning that the jetliner could stall, and then tried to abort the landing seconds before crashing, according to federal safety officials.

Investigators also said they were looking into the possibility that rescue crews ran over one of the two teenagers killed in the crash on Saturday. Officials released the details without explaining why the pilots were flying so slow - or why rescue officials didn't see the girl.

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=9162574

Very sad.


Offline Glock32

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It seems very probable that it was pilot error. The automated systems were offline due to runway construction, but this is something that is well advertised in advance and landings continue with visual approach. Supposedly the flight data recorder indicates the engines were at idle setting. The sudden pitch up was probably due to the tail section being sheared off. The NTSB press conference stated the plane was well below the 137 knot air speed used for landing. Sounds like it was coming in too low, too slow, and too late for an aborted landing and go-around.

I'd say it is a testament to the build quality of the 777 that it held together that well, resulting in only 2 fatalities.
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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »
Quote
Official probes if rescuers ran over San Francisco plane crash victim

 FRESNO, Calif. -- Pilots of Asiana Flight 214 were flying too slowly as they approached San Francisco airport, triggering a control board warning that the jetliner could stall, and then tried to abort the landing seconds before crashing, according to federal safety officials.

Investigators also said they were looking into the possibility that rescue crews ran over one of the two teenagers killed in the crash on Saturday. Officials released the details without explaining why the pilots were flying so slow - or why rescue officials didn't see the girl.

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=9162574

Very sad.

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 10:31:57 PM »

Read the suggested speed is 157.   That glide path system is for foul weather.
He gave it the gas just before the tail hit.  Ace has good commentary and link to WSJ.

"In the chaotic moments after the landing, when baggage was tumbling from the overhead bins onto passengers and people all around her were screaming, Wen Zhang grabbed her 4-year-old son, who hit the seat in front of him and broke his leg.

Spotting a hole at the back of the jumbo jet where the bathroom had been, she carried her boy to safety."


Offline Glock32

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 02:14:07 AM »
It has now emerged that the pilot-in-command had only 43 hours experience in the 777 and was attempting his first landing at the San Francisco airport.

So not only was it an error from an inexperienced pilot, the more experienced pilots training him failed to intervene quickly enough when it was apparent that he was making mistakes.
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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2013, 05:34:35 AM »
Pilot error led to a stall, there was no way to regain any altitude quick enough.  And there are much tougher airports to land at than SF, they can review pilot training for plane models new to personnel, but come on, you're still an experienced pilot, knowing your speed and stall threshold as well as angle is basic...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 10:26:37 AM »

Kyoto.

Offline trapeze

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2013, 10:29:55 AM »
So not only was it an error from an inexperienced pilot, the more experienced pilots training him failed to intervene quickly enough when it was apparent that he was making mistakes.

They didn't want to damage his self esteem.

Or they were all on a union mandated smoke break.

Or they were training him in crash landing techniques.

Or someone said, "I bet you can't hit the seawall with the tail."
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Glock32

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2013, 11:21:24 AM »
Pilot error led to a stall, there was no way to regain any altitude quick enough.  And there are much tougher airports to land at than SF, they can review pilot training for plane models new to personnel, but come on, you're still an experienced pilot, knowing your speed and stall threshold as well as angle is basic...


Right. That should be a fundamental skill for a pilot who has made it to that level of the profession, something that could almost be done in his sleep even on a less familiar aircraft. One of my sister's friends is a 737 pilot and he said you become so accustomed to what a proper glide slope looks like (approx. 3%) that for an experienced pilot it amounts to little more than confirming the runway is in the right part of the windscreen on approach.

As an aside, I got annoyed reading articles on the Daily Mail and other European news sites, because so many of the comments were that predictable, smarmy European criticism of anything perceived as American. In this case, the competition between Boeing and Airbus becomes a proxy for America vs. Europe, to them at least. "The Airbus will not allow a pilot to input an unsafe maneuver, it's so much safer and more sophisticated" blah blah blah. Yeah, that Air France A340 did not allow an unsafe maneuver did it? It did not allow one, all the way to not the surface of not the Atlantic Ocean in not a near nose dive.  Bill Whittle, who is an aviation buff and pilot, had an interesting video on the difference in philosophy between Airbus and Boeing and how it does reflect different attitudes of their builders. Airbus believes the plane is smarter than the pilot and overrules him, whereas Boeing believes the pilot should have the latitude to put the plane outside of normal flight regimes if emergency situations require it.
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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 11:50:16 AM »
So not only was it an error from an inexperienced pilot, the more experienced pilots training him failed to intervene quickly enough when it was apparent that he was making mistakes.

They didn't want to damage his self esteem.

Or they were all on a union mandated smoke break.

Or they were training him in crash landing techniques.

Or someone said, "I bet you can't hit the seawall with the tail."


Who said that?  Sounds like a Leslie Nielsen character!  We wouldn't hear any of that kind of brutal honesty...we'll get spoon-fed PR babblespeak...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 11:54:08 AM »
Pilot error led to a stall, there was no way to regain any altitude quick enough.  And there are much tougher airports to land at than SF, they can review pilot training for plane models new to personnel, but come on, you're still an experienced pilot, knowing your speed and stall threshold as well as angle is basic...


Right. That should be a fundamental skill for a pilot who has made it to that level of the profession, something that could almost be done in his sleep even on a less familiar aircraft. One of my sister's friends is a 737 pilot and he said you become so accustomed to what a proper glide slope looks like (approx. 3%) that for an experienced pilot it amounts to little more than confirming the runway is in the right part of the windscreen on approach.

As an aside, I got annoyed reading articles on the Daily Mail and other European news sites, because so many of the comments were that predictable, smarmy European criticism of anything perceived as American. In this case, the competition between Boeing and Airbus becomes a proxy for America vs. Europe, to them at least. "The Airbus will not allow a pilot to input an unsafe maneuver, it's so much safer and more sophisticated" blah blah blah. Yeah, that Air France A340 did not allow an unsafe maneuver did it? It did not allow one, all the way to not the surface of not the Atlantic Ocean in not a near nose dive.  Bill Whittle, who is an aviation buff and pilot, had an interesting video on the difference in philosophy between Airbus and Boeing and how it does reflect different attitudes of their builders. Airbus believes the plane is smarter than the pilot and overrules him, whereas Boeing believes the pilot should have the latitude to put the plane outside of normal flight regimes if emergency situations require it.

Airbus doesn't exactly have a pristine safety record...I'd bet Beoing's matchup to similar Airbus models is favorable...sounds to me like the Airbus method increases the likelyhood of less skilled pilots.  Wasn't that an Airbus that just plunged into the South Atlantic a couple years ago?  I don't think a solid cause was ever found for that...never got the black box data...where was all that smart-plane crap then?
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Glock32

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Re: 2 dead, dozens injured in San Francisco Asiana Airlines plane crash
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 12:38:49 PM »
Yes that was the Air France flight, an Airbus A340. The crash was caused in part by Airbus insistence on letting the computer make assumptions. The pilots were giving opposite pitch inputs on their controls, and the computer averaged the two competing inputs. On the Airbus there is no feedback between the two sets of flight controls. On a Boeing if the yoke is moved on one side of the cockpit, the other yoke moves in unison so each pilot can feel what the other is doing. In the Air France flight one pilot was trying to pitch the plane down because a malfunctioning pitot tube was giving a false low air speed indication and he thought he was preventing a stall. The other pilot was trying to pitch up to avoid crashing, but his inputs were basically being canceled out by the computer averaging with the other pilot's inputs.

They both make solid aircraft, but I prefer Boeing's philosophy.
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