Topic: Pope Jumps Shark: All Dogs Go To Heaven

[trapeze]

This is, of course, heresy writ large.

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

Take this statement to its logical conclusion and you won't like what you find.

[trapeze]

I mean, where do you start with this nonsense?

I used the "all dogs go to heaven" phrase in my thread title because it makes as much sense.

I'm not sure you can even say that there is a context issue here. I don't see how this can be interpreted any other way...the Pope now says that the afterlife, eternal communion with the Creator, is open to anyone regardless of what Scripture defines as salvation.

What he is essentially saying is that, "You are God and you define your own spirituality and morality." This is the sort of nonsense that comes directly out of the new age, feel good about yourself "churches" such as erected by the unitarians.

Perhaps the pope is insane.

That might explain his statement.

It's either that or this is the most doctrinally liberal pope in history. I'm not a catholic and I have many very serious issues with what the catholics subscribe to that includes (probably at or near the top of the list) the notion that a human being (in the person of the pope) is infallible. And this situation probably highlights the problem with that idea...because if you believe that the pope is infallible and the pope starts making heretical statements then, just what exactly do you do about it? I would say that you are more or less painted into a corner on that one.

I guess that this (and other recent statements that are every bit as heretical) will be welcome news to the catholics in leadership positions within the Democrat party...Nancy Pelosi in particular should be quite happy to be vindicated in regards to her own outrageously liberal interpretation of Scripture. San Francisco catholics were probably delighted to know that the pope said, “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?” Which, of course, opens the door for the catholic church to accept both gay "marriage" and (openly) gay priests.

But getting back to his statement, what he says is that you are God. Not a god but God. You are the ultimate decider as to whether or not you spend eternity in heaven or hell. If you feel good about yourself then, bam...pearly gates for you.  As long as you can convince yourself, via your conscience, that you are without sin then it's cool with God. But then, what this really means is that God and his Word are irrelevant in the big picture since you can bypass Him. Or that, in the pope's view, God is sleeping now and we need to step up to the plate and take care of this whole salvation thing on our own.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

You see, I was under the impression that sin exists because man invited it into the world. I thought that sin currently exists apart from anything man has to say about the matter...that it's like gravity...it just is.

Looking at the first statement:

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith."

This is heresy right out of the gate for the leader of a supposed Christian denomination. "the God of the Christians?" Who are these other Gods? What about the "God" of the muslims? or the "God" of the Buddhists? How do you suppose this affects satanists? I don't know how you can promote yourself as a serious leader of a Christian church and immediately surrender the basic concept of monotheism.

"God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart."

This is pretty much saying that all of those statements in Scripture about the wages of sin being death and that God cannot abide with sin and such are optional...that God wasn't really serious when He said them.

I don't know. I don't even see the point in dissecting this any further. It is absolute blather. The pope is either crazy or the catholics have elected the pope version of Obama.

[RickZ]

In July, Francis signalled a more progressive attitude on sexuality, asking: “If someone is gay and is looking for the Lord, who am I to judge him?”

I am getting so sick of that word 'progressive'.  'Retrograde' is more like it.

[IronDioPriest]

'Slims are following their conscience when they saw off the heads of Christians.

Heresy. Idiocy.

[Libertas]

I guess Francis is saying Christian's might as well close up all shops...I mean, what's the point?!

[trapeze]

Well, all I can say is that I am glad that I am not a catholic.

I used to be a Republican party member and, due to the constant betrayal from Republican leadership on fundamental principles, due to the Republican party's striving to be Democrat Lite, I have left the party.

If I were a catholic and if I had bought in to all of the catholic church teachings and dogma for my entire life, I would find myself having to leave the church.

When your church's leader pretty much comes out and says that faith is optional, maybe even completely unnecessary, then what's the point of anything else the church has ever espoused?

This is, for all intents and purposes, just like our current president acting as if the Constitution is optional, enforcing some laws while ignoring others, applying justice to some people while letting other people skate. Except that it involves the spiritual belief system of an entire body of believers. If this happened in my church, if my pastor came out and said, in public or in private, that salvation was whatever I wanted it to be according to the dictates of my own conscience, I would get up and leave. Immediately. I would find somewhere else to worship. I don't know what you do if you are a catholic. Protestants have lots of denominations that came into existence because one group had a minor (and sometimes not minor) disagreement over doctrine. Catholics have been able to pretty much hold their entire church together for hundreds of years, maintaining doctrinal discipline, because of the infallible pope notion. Now that they have a pope who pretty much says anything goes I don't know what happens with them. But that's their problem, not mine.

It is, though, yet another institution which is crumbling/imploding from progressive thought.

We truly live in a very, very bad time and unfortunately we are only at the beginning of it. We are on a downward spiral and there is no means of reversing the trend available to us for a very long time.

[Libertas]

It's all going to the dogs...

[Weisshaupt]

Maybe they should have picked a Catholic to be Pope?

Like our Country, they have someone destroying the church from the inside out.  And Yes, if you read Revelations, there are two beasts- one in charge of the church and another a world leader.  I read something in the crank  file saying the covenant mentioned in Daniel was Obama's 30 Minute Ad/Speech/ Address during that campaign.  Again, not I am not sure I can write this crap off anymore.

[Pandora]

Ann Barnhardt knew this guy for what he is and said so. 

Many of us were told who and what Obongo is before '08, were horrified, and tried to tell others ..... many of whom refused to listen.  I can only surmise some knew the same about this pope and were powerless to prevent his election by the ones that wanted him because of who he is.

Francis is Obongo in a cassock.

I don't know much about the concept of papal infallibility, as I was indifferent when I should have been paying attention.

Ann:  "We got what we deserved, and probably better than we deserve. God’s chastisement of His people is sending them bad priests, bishops, and now, in all likelihood, a bad pope."

[LadyVirginia]

I don't understand most of it but I found the English translation of Pope Francis' letter to the atheist journalist:

link

[Magnum]

I am not Catholic either, and there are things I do not agree with in their theology. But I do not agree with everything many Messianic Jewish congregations believe either, such as close adherence to dietary laws. I do them because they are good for my body not because by doing them I will go to Heaven.

However there is nothing more important as to what the Bible says NOT MEN!

John 14:6

The Bible makes it clear there is no other way to heaven but through the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Me.
 
A person is saved thus is going to Heaven by faith alone:

Ephesians 2:8-9

God saved you by His grace when you believed (Jesus died and was resurrected and took the punishment for our sins). And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Romans 10 9-10

9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


I have to say this. There is a big difference between European protestants and Catholics compared to American Evangelicals and Catholics. From Americas conception true born again believers came here to settle and worship in freedom. They thought themselves as the new Israel just as the Jews fled persecution in Egypt the Puritans fled from persecution in Europe. These were passionate born again Bible Believing followers of Jesus without excuse or apology.

And to this day their faith legacy have been passed on through many churches throughout our great county. That is why Jews are so loved, adored, supported and prayed for by most American Evangelicals.  I believe the same holds true for many American Catholics, at least the ones I have dialoged with. IMHO there are many in this country who do not follow the church of Rome but follow what the Bible says and are brothers and sisters in arms as we fight on the social issues. In fact there are few better warriors than my Catholic brethren when we fight the lefties on social issues.

[trapeze]

Well said.

[IronDioPriest]

Well said.

Agreed.

There definitely is a disconnect between the Catholic Church leadership and American lay Catholics. That disconnect ranges from Catholics who are bible-believing born-again Christians, to Leftist secular humanists who go to Catholic church. In either case, they follow the doctrine of Rome only in name.

This pope though... he seems to be coming very close to secular humanism.

[Miltrainer]

The key word I have trouble with, that the pope used, is "Conscience". There are many in the world whose conscience is different than what many Christen's have. In many cultures polygamy is the norm. Some have a guilty conscience if they do do something that is considered a norm in their culture. What about cannibals? Yes, they still exist. What if they don't like the taste of human flesh. Under certain circumstances they believe that eating ones 'enemy' is the right thing to do.

If a gay person has a guilty conscience about having homosexual contact and gay person doesn't, who is right. If they lead the same kind of life do both go to heaven. What about pedophiles? What about bestiality.
We have been told by a multitude of people that we all hate gays. I don't. I have no problem with a person being gay. It is how they act on those feelings is what I don't like. Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon those urges is.

It used to be that gays would feel guilty about homosexual acts. Now many don't. Did the gays who felt guilty not get into heaven and the ones didn't feel guilty pass through the pearly gates.

I guess we can though away most of the ten commandments then. I have seen so many liars who are perfectly comfortable lying to everyone. Many are in Congress.

[RickZ]

I guess we can though away most of the ten commandments then. I have seen so many liars who are perfectly comfortable lying to everyone. Many are in Congress Washington, D.C.

Fixed for accuracy.  Why leave Preezy Skeezy or The Carnival Barker off the list?  Or Sebellius or Rice or Hiilarity!, ad nauseum.

[IronDioPriest]

The key word I have trouble with, that the pope used, is "Conscience". There are many in the world whose conscience is different than what many Christen's have. In many cultures polygamy is the norm. Some have a guilty conscience if they do do something that is considered a norm in their culture. What about cannibals? Yes, they still exist. What if they don't like the taste of human flesh. Under certain circumstances they believe that eating ones 'enemy' is the right thing to do.

If a gay person has a guilty conscience about having homosexual contact and gay person doesn't, who is right. If they lead the same kind of life do both go to heaven. What about pedophiles? What about bestiality.
We have been told by a multitude of people that we all hate gays. I don't. I have no problem with a person being gay. It is how they act on those feelings is what I don't like. Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon those urges is.

It used to be that gays would feel guilty about homosexual acts. Now many don't. Did the gays who felt guilty not get into heaven and the ones didn't feel guilty pass through the pearly gates.

I guess we can though away most of the ten commandments then. I have seen so many liars who are perfectly comfortable lying to everyone. Many are in Congress.

Exactly right. If we are to have conscience as our only guide, then as I said earlier, the 'Slim whose conscience demands that he saw the head off an infidel while screaming to allah, is covered in God's grace.

That is heresy.

[trapeze]

Well, the whole statement is heretical because it is at odds with Scripture. You either take the Word seriously or you do not. This pope seems to be of a mind to make stuff up as he goes. Again, I'm not catholic and I don't pretend to understand a whole, whole lot about catholicism but I am under the impression that the pope is supposed to interpret Scripture for the catholic church...The second vatican counsel or vatican 2 is the most famous contemporary example of that sort of thing, I suppose.

Anyway, you now have a pope who is saying, in essence, "if it feels good, do it."

But, for me, the worst thing that is implied by those statements is that God, the Creator, and His commandments are irrelevant to man. It implies that God is indifferent to man's behavior in and of itself and that man may, through his own mental machinations, think his way into salvation. It implies that the death and resurrection of Christ is not necessary for salvation. It implies that the life of Christ, that time He spent on Earth, is now diminished in its significance. For catholics you have to wonder what the point of confession would be after that statement? What would be the point of even attending mass as long as you justified within your own mind all of your actions? If you see yourself as a "good" person, then that's enough for this pope.

Again, if I was a catholic, this would be a tipping point for me. I would be leaving the church for some place that takes itself more seriously.

[LadyVirginia]

This topic has reminded me of conversations I've had before.  I look to Jesus and the Bible and the Judeo-Christian values I was raised with.  But what I can't get my head around is if you don't have that how do you develop a conscience?  How do you determine good and evil?  If you're not a God-fearing person do you have know the difference?  I think you still do. But then where do you look for answers?  Socrates? Your country's leader?  Where does he get them? I guess this assumes there's one way to determine good and evil.  I think there is.

If you assume people can figure out good and evil individually because you think most people want to be nice then I think you're relying on the fumes from Christianity in the post-Christian world. I have family who are raising their children to be nice.  They don't seem to realize those niceness principles are rooted in Judeo-Christian values they were raised with.  Sadly, their children won't have those to fall back on.
They will have no inner compass.   

While most Americans refer to themselves as Christians, a study released Monday by Barna Group shows an upward trend in "post-Christian" beliefs and behaviors among the nation's adult population.

According to the study, which is an analysis of nearly 43,000 interviews conducted in recent years by the Ventura, Calif.-based organization, more than 70 percent of American adults describe themselves as Christians. Only 63 percent of people rank "low" on the Barna Group's post-Christian scale, however, while 28 percent are considered "moderately" post-Christian and nine percent are considered "highly" post-Christian.

The post-Christianity scale is based on 15 faith-related metrics researchers have tracked in recent years. Included in these metrics are measurements indicating the percentage of people who have not prayed to God in the last year (18 percent), who haven't read the Bible in the last week (57 percent), who don't consider faith an important part of their lives (13 percent) and haven't been to a Christian church in the last year (33 percent), among other things.

Individuals whose beliefs and behaviors matched nine or more of the 15 characteristics were labeled "post-Christian," while those who met 12 or more were labeled "highly post-Christian." David Kinnaman, president of Barna Group, explained the purpose of trying to measure the level of post-Christianity in a statement on the group's website.

link

[IronDioPriest]

Dennis Prager calls that "cut flower ethics". A cut flower can remain pretty for a time, but it is dead the moment it is cut from the root.

[LadyVirginia]

Dennis Prager calls that "cut flower ethics". A cut flower can remain pretty for a time, but it is dead the moment it is cut from the root.

I hadn't heard that before but that's it exactly.