Topic: Moses wandering in the wilderness

[whimsicalmamapig]

In the bible, Moses was made to wander 40 years in the wilderness until all the generations that had succumbed to the image of the golden calf had passed. The lesson of this story is that it is not possible to "re-educate" people who have strayed or participated in such sinful behavior and their punishment was to be denied entry into the promised land. This was a stern lesson to be taught, but a necessary one all the same.

While I was considering this I was also thinking about the generations of young people who have been indoctrinated in our school systems these past several generations and whether it would be possible to eradicate the socialism, relativism and other "progressive" ideas that have taken root in their minds.

The wisdom of the bible leads me to doubt that it can be as easy as changing administrations in Washington to remove all those leftist and dysfunctional ideas from our culture, yet these young people were not willing accomplices to this mass cultural betrayal but are more the victim of an agenda of propaganda. "Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted." Vladimir Lenin.

I am despondent as to how this country could undo the damage of the past 40+ years, and I am chagrinned to believe that it may take generations to accomplish if possible, and I will not have the time to see its transformation.

Is this a topic that has been covered before I found this group? Do you guys have debated points that address this issue?

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

There is truth in your observation. The poison of the mind is too deep to cure in one election. I do not think there can be a resurection. There will be a fall. Then, perhaps, if we are truly blessed, a new nation can arise out of the ashes. Many will die, as they did when the communists took Russia, or China, or Germany. But, perhaps someday, we can arise anew. There is always a remnant. There are always some who know and carrry truth.  Hope springs eternal. I know I shall not live to see it, yet long for those days to come. I had hope in my own youth, yet did not see the fruition. Perhaps my sons, or my grandsons will.

[old crank]

whimsicalmamapig, I take your point about the enormity of  our problem with re-educating the last couple generations, and it is a thoroughly depressing one. 

I would like to say though, that I've heard it said that God obliged the Israelites to spend forty years wandering in the desert because they were not ready to settle down and govern themselves, and needed to be led and watched over and disciplined by Moses until the fugitive generation had died out.  Those people had been slaves and had only known a life of slavery.  The new generation had grown up free, and learned to conduct themselves (well, more or l less) by the law Moses had given them.  In light of the New Testament understanding of redemption, I rather incline to this theory rather than that of the impossibility of re-thinking sinful behavior. 

Today we do not have an abrupt break with slavery to impel us to learn anew how to govern ourselves, but we have the Constitution, and the ongoing veins of American patriotism running like streaks of gold ore through our society.  We must simply be willing to pay the price of freedom - eternal vigilance.  Personally, I take heart at the number of young people who do NOT fit the norm.  They turn up in the news, like the middle school kid who refused to take off his God-and-guns t-shirt, and that girl on Huckabee last night, who did not lie down and roll over just because she was being bullied at school.  And there is the amazing popularity of "Duck Dynasty,"  which I find most encouraging. 

I'm reminded of the recent Krauthammer interviews on television.  The things that matter - the elegant and beautiful things in life - cannot be secure unless we get the politics right.  We MUST get the politics right.

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

whimsicalmamapig, I take your point about the enormity of  our problem with re-educating the last couple generations, and it is a thoroughly depressing one. 

I would like to say though, that I've heard it said that God obliged the Israelites to spend forty years wandering in the desert because they were not ready to settle down and govern themselves, and needed to be led and watched over and disciplined by Moses until the fugitive generation had died out.  Those people had been slaves and had only known a life of slavery.  The new generation had grown up free, and learned to conduct themselves (well, more or l less) by the law Moses had given them.  In light of the New Testament understanding of redemption, I rather incline to this theory rather than that of the impossibility of re-thinking sinful behavior. 

Today we do not have an abrupt break with slavery to impel us to learn anew how to govern ourselves, but we have the Constitution, and the ongoing veins of American patriotism running like streaks of gold ore through our society.  We must simply be willing to pay the price of freedom - eternal vigilance.  Personally, I take heart at the number of young people who do NOT fit the norm.  They turn up in the news, like the middle school kid who refused to take off his God-and-guns t-shirt, and that girl on Huckabee last night, who did not lie down and roll over just because she was being bullied at school.  And there is the amazing popularity of "Duck Dynasty,"  which I find most encouraging. 

I'm reminded of the recent Krauthammer interviews on television.  The things that matter - the elegant and beautiful things in life - cannot be secure unless we get the politics right.  We MUST get the politics right.

God bless those with HOPE!!

[whimsicalmamapig]

I saw that program on Charles Krauthammer and it was quite inspiring. now if we can just get the politics right. How did our fear of communism become a love of socialism?

[warpmine]

Civil war is the logical alternative to wondering 40 years in the wilderness. We already have enough that can lead by example, we just need to vanquish the enemies of God's written word. Socialism and all the isms that are branches of it must be destroyed and His word elevated once again as the best words to live by.

Lock and load.

[RickZ]

Civil war

!!  I'm too fukcing tired to wander.

[Libertas]

Too old, too tired and damn well too fed up...and we have no time for multi-generational hooey...

Get to the rat-killin' already!

[Weisshaupt]

Today we do not have an abrupt break with slavery to impel us to learn anew how to govern ourselves,

I respectfully disagree.  The left has done everything it could to remove personal responsibility and individual accountability from the minds of its adherents.  It values mindless obedience and meaningless Orwellian platitudes. They offer them free food, free health care, free shelter, free clothing and a Job.  These People WANT to be SLAVES. They want to be cared for and are willing to accept servitude and surrender their free will to the collective that owns them  to get it.   They are Huxley's Brave New World: a slave who enjoys being a slave.

When the music stops, these people WILL be leaving a life of  slavery for the first time.  And they have no idea how to conduct themselves in a free society.  They believe "Live and Let live" is a philosophy that places an an imposition on THEM, that forces YOUR values about  having ownership of your own life  on them. They see no reason they should recognize other people as having rights, wants, dreams of lives that are not bent to the will of the Collective Slave master ( whom they love and trust as their own Father)

Yes, we could wander in the desert for 40 years to purge ourselves of them, or we could just deal with them as and civilization has dealt with uncivilized, barbarous, bullying, narcissistic, non-contributing Zeros at their gates.  They all participated.  They all voted to persecute, indenture and enslave their fellow men.  They deserve no mercy and no compassion, for they have none for us.  They have made it clear we either live their way, and submit to their violation of our rights, or they will use the very  government we created to protect and preserve those rights, s a weapon to persecute, imprison and jail us. And to them I say "Liberty or Death!"  They will get the Civil War. (only they will call it a purge of "Right Wing Terrorists")

[Pandora]

I would like to say though, that I've heard it said that God obliged the Israelites to spend forty years wandering in the desert because they were not ready to settle down and govern themselves, and needed to be led and watched over and disciplined by Moses until the fugitive generation had died out.  Those people had been slaves and had only known a life of slavery.  The new generation had grown up free, and learned to conduct themselves (well, more or l less) by the law Moses had given them.  In light of the New Testament understanding of redemption, I rather incline to this theory rather than that of the impossibility of re-thinking sinful behavior.

This is how I understand it as well; they were obliged to wander until those with the slave mentality died off.

We are going to have the same dilemma: what to do about those who will not and cannot self-govern, but want security in lieu of liberty, i.e. chattel.  It's not enough for them alone to be ruled, they believe because they need and want it, it must be imposed on everyone.

We MUST get the politics right.

The Founders believed the same so they set up a system for us with the best chance of doing just that, and with a warning.  It "went south" anyway because of those with the wrong politics, as it was ever thus.

The right politics does not run on autopilot; we forgot that.

[Pablo de Fleurs]

This is how I understand it as well; they were obliged to wander until those with the slave mentality died off.

The reason for the “wandering” is found in the book of Numbers, chapter 14, which details the account of the Israelites spying out the land of Canaan. Verse 34, God declares the children of Israel shall wander 40 years in the wilderness, a year for each day the spies were in Canaan.

This is simply because of their unbelief in the power of God, which is remarkable, considering all that He had done for them to that point. The period of 40 years was for the 'unbelieving generation' to die off, so the new generation could rise up and enter the land.

So, in a word, they wandered because of their disobedience (to God). They did not believe that the land to which God had led them, was theirs...& refused to inhabit it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Spies
The Twelve Spies,, as recorded in the Book of Numbers, were a group of Israelite chieftains, one from each of the Twelve Tribes, who were dispatched by Moses to scout out the Land of Canaan for 40 days as a future home for the Israelite people, during the time the Israelites were in the desert following the Exodus from Ancient Egypt. The account is found in Numbers 13:1-14.
God had promised Abraham that there would be a Promised Land for the nations to come out of his son, Isaac. The land of Canaan which the spies were to explore was the same Promised Land. When ten of the twelve spies told lies about the land, they were slandering what they believed God had promised them. They did not believe that God could help them, and the people as a whole were persuaded that it was not possible to take the land. As a result, the entire nation was made to wander in the desert for 40 years, until almost the entire generation of men had died.[1] Joshua and Caleb were the two spies who brought back a good report and believed that God would help them succeed. They were the only men from their generation permitted to go into the Promised Land after the time of wandering.

Numbers 14 | Israel Refuses to Enter Canaan

14 So all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the children of Israel complained against Moses and Aaron, and the whole congregation said to them, “If only we had died in the land of Egypt! Or if only we had died in this wilderness! 3 Why has the LORD brought us to this land to fall by the sword, that our wives and children should become victims? Would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” 4 So they said to one another, “Let us select a leader and return to Egypt.”
5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.
6 But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, who were among those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes; 7 and they spoke to all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying: “The land we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land. 8 If the LORD delights in us, then He will bring us into this land and give it to us, ‘a land which flows with milk and honey.’[a] 9 Only do not rebel against the LORD, nor fear the people of the land, for they are our bread; their protection has departed from them, and the LORD is with us. Do not fear them.”
10 And all the congregation said to stone them with stones. Now the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of meeting before all the children of Israel. . . .

Complete chapter
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2014&version=NKJV

[AlanS]

We MUST get the politics right.

IMHO, even though politics is the disease, "We" won't be able to cure the disease politically. We've already gone beyond the point of no return.

[Pandora]

Well, don't I feel ignorant.  Thanks for the lesson, Pablo.

[benb61]

We (the older crowd) have lived in the America of our forefathers.  We have experienced the great American lifestyle where we could become anything we set our minds to.  We are the patriots, the younger crowd have been poisoned by liberal doctrine force fed to them through the public school system.  If we are to die off who will be left to stand up to the Marxist/Socialist/Communist powers that wish to enslave the population?  Moses's time was different, the 40 years of wandering was to give time for those that had been poisoned by being slaves to die off so the youngsters could realize that liberty and freedom granted by God was the correct way to live. We need to teach our children how the Republic is supposed to work, hard work is its own reward, compassion for others, all the things that the Founding Fathers knew were the responsibility of the citizenry, not the requirements of government.

[BigAlSouth]

We (the older crowd) have lived in the America of our forefathers.  We have experienced the great American lifestyle where we could become anything we set our minds to.  We are the patriots, the younger crowd have been poisoned by liberal doctrine force fed to them through the public school system.  <snip>

Where did all the "Hate America" crowd come from? It came from the Vietnam war era college professors and anarchists, the very folks who are running the administration today. Then tell me why the very same anti-war, anti-Americans who run the country today are so adamant about involvement in wars that have zero to do with American interests. Libya? Are your kidding me? Egypt? What? And the blatant back-stabbing of our loyal ally in the Middle East, the Nation of Israel, makes me livid.

[whimsicalmamapig]

I believe that the kernel of "Hate America" came over with the great immigration after the turn of the previous century. We accepted quite a few Marxist/socialist who were fleeing Europe and when they got here they ran smack up against the yellow journalist crowd that was decrying the "unfairness and greed" of the rise of big business.

There was a great deal of latent envy and hate from this new amalgamation of Europeans and yellow journalists about the vast wealth of the Carnegies and Rockefellers and this was compounded by the great depression.

A lefty like Arlo Guthrie got as much of his populism/socialism from his dad and that crowd as he did from the radical left college crowd of the 60's. The 60's just allowed it to pile onto the "Hippie-Peaceniks" and roll into one big ball of anti-social behavior behind which the true socialist/communists were freer to work their destructive plots upon our nation.

[Weisshaupt]

I believe that the kernel of "Hate America" came over with the great immigration after the turn of the previous century. We accepted quite a few Marxist/socialist who were fleeing Europe and when they got here they ran smack up against the yellow journalist crowd that was decrying the "unfairness and greed" of the rise of big business.

There was a great deal of latent envy and hate from this new amalgamation of Europeans and yellow journalists about the vast wealth of the Carnegies and Rockefellers and this was compounded by the great depression.

A lefty like Arlo Guthrie got as much of his populism/socialism from his dad and that crowd as he did from the radical left college crowd of the 60's. The 60's just allowed it to pile onto the "Hippie-Peaceniks" and roll into one big ball of anti-social behavior behind which the true socialist/communists were freer to work their destructive plots upon our nation.

The sad thing is the "real" hippie movement was to drop out of the culture and get "the man" to leave you alone. Almost everything I do in my prep has me following in some (real) Hippie's footsteps.

[whimsicalmamapig]

weisshaupt- I read your reply but I am not sure what you meant? if it wouldn't be a problem, could you give me a little more understanding of it

[Weisshaupt]

weisshaupt- I read your reply but I am not sure what you meant? if it wouldn't be a problem, could you give me a little more understanding of it

The Original "hippie" culture of the 60s was based on the the Timothy Leary idea of Turn on, Tune in, Drop Out  which Leary explained to mean

"Turn on" meant go within to activate your neural and genetic equipment. Become sensitive to the many and various levels of consciousness and the specific triggers that engage them. Drugs were one way to accomplish this end. "Tune in" meant interact harmoniously with the world around you - externalize, materialize, express your new internal perspectives. "Drop out" suggested an active, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or unconscious commitments. "Drop Out" meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean "Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity".[4]

emphasis mine..

"real" Hippies in the the Leary sense, were supposed to awaken themselves  ( albeit possibly with drug experimentation where the drug were supposed to jolt you out of conventional ways of seeing the world - not numb you to it or let you escape from it) , start paying attention, and basically live their own lives, their own way, and on their own initiative.  And a lot of these Hippies went and did just that.  Found ways to live pretty much free of the constraints others would put on them, and often came up with clever, cheap and efficient ways of achieving their ends.  Now I am trying to learn how to "drop out" myself in my attempt to go Galt and become largely self-sustaining, I find myself looking at things these "hippies" figured out a long time ago - "Rocket Stoves" ,  wood gassifiers,  Alcohol as a fuel,  various planting and agricultural  methods (no till,symbiotic  poly crops, aquaponics)  Yes a lot of them lean left, largely because they like the do-gooer, feel good aspect and have convinced themselves the Dems are "anti-capitalism, anti-corporation, and anti-consumerism"  but ultimately they resent the EPAs efforts  to stop them from creating a water diversion on their own property that doesn't impede a stream in any way so they can install a water turbine, as much as we would.  They are still irritating as hell and they still smell bad, but they are unlikely to want to control  how you live.

[whimsicalmamapig]

so when you speak of hippies yours are closer to Henry David Thoreau than to Tommy Chong. When I think hippie I think Haight Asbury and Jefferson Airplane.  quite a different brand of individual. I have known quite a few "Off the grid" people and they were following their own star, so to speak, but I must be more influenced by the hippie-freak sort of guy when I recall the left of the 60's and 70's. I think the good hippies had fled to the hills by that time.