Author Topic: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again  (Read 2815 times)

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Offline BMG

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The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« on: May 03, 2012, 09:58:26 PM »
Bloomberg VAT LINK

Quote
With the exception of the U.S., every country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has a value-added tax -- one on business sales that functions much like a retail sales tax. It’s time for the U.S. to join that club.

Quote
Unfortunately, the VAT hasn’t been a central feature of most tax-reform discussions. Bipartisan plans such as the one proposed by the commission led by Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles focused on expanding the personal income tax base while cutting rates, so that more revenue could be collected without hurting the economy. The calculation seemed to be that Americans were unlikely to accept an entirely new tax, so we should focus on making the income tax better.

Here we go again. How dumb must a person be to willingly submit to a VAT? I wonder how 'flexible' Obumbles will be on a VAT if he gets a second term?  
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:02:23 PM by BMG »
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
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charlesoakwood

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 10:30:19 PM »

There's only about 33 1/3 of the people who are willing to
be taxed again and they have a long playing record of
favoring taxation.  Even those asleep at the wheel jolt awake
when they hear the word 'tax'.

Online Pandora

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 10:38:19 PM »
NO. 

There's the absolute without need to qualify it in any way.

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Offline trapeze

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 10:49:12 PM »
I have mixed feelings about a VAT or any other kind of sales tax.

On the one hand, I would be perfectly fine with that type of taxation IF income tax (both personal and corporate AND capital gains AND estate) were permanently repealed. The main reason that I favor it is that at least more people would be paying something in taxes as opposed to the present situation where about half do and half don't. The other reasons that I favor it is that it largely eliminates the IRS as a source of intimidation and it eliminates the ridiculously convoluted tax code.

On the other hand, as a business owner I am not inclined to appreciate being an unpaid tax collector for the federal government.

Fat chance, though, that the income tax will EVER be repealed so my opinions in that direction are rather meaningless.

I want no part of a VAT or any other form of national sales tax that is piled on top of the income tax. That's just stupid.

One more caveat: I would favor a Constitutional amendment that outlaws ALL income taxes...federal, state and/or local. They are inherently unfair (for a host of reasons) and are a disincentive to productivity. I am not in favor of a flat (income) tax for the same reasons.
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charlesoakwood

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 11:08:14 PM »

I like the 'sales tax only' because it allows me to choose
whether I want to pay the tax or not.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 11:46:02 PM »
I think replacing the current monstrosity with something like a VAT would be infinitely more equitable, simple, and logical  than anything we've known in our lifetimes. Thus, Democrats and Republicans will not do it. Simple as that. If it comes, it'll be an oppressive add-on, not a replacement.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online benb61

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 12:00:56 AM »
A Federal sales tax instead of all the other taxes would actually bring more dollars into the national coffers and strengthen the economy because every person that purchases anything would be contributing.  From the under the table agricultural migrant worker (and non-taxpaying drug dealer) to the foreigner here on vacation.  And those who make more money will pay more (in dollars not percent of wealth) because they will still buy the higher ticket items.  It will encourage savings which will strengthen the banks and make more money available to loan to the businesses who need to make payroll, which will lower rates naturally instead of this artificial crap that is destroying us.  Lower rates mean business will be able to hire more who will have cash to spend which will add more to the general fund. But I absolutely agree with Trap, all other taxes need to be outlawed, I also believe that there needs to be a Balanced Budget Amendment.  Otherwise the worse than "drunken sailors" in Washington spending our hard earned cash will continue to send this once great nation further down the drain.
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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 12:19:13 AM »
Y'all really want a Value Added Tax to every level of production up to retail?  Really?  Every level?

NO.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 12:28:45 AM »
Y'all really want a Value Added Tax to every level of production up to retail?  Really?  Every level?

NO.

I'm with you on that, Pan.

I can only imagine the number of tax code pages it would take to define "production" or "value-added".  And then just for fun we could give "exceptions" to companies who are "green". 

Make mine a super big NO.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 07:19:44 AM »
Everytime this comes up, the left hijacks the debate and no longer are we talking about one tax replacing another but another tax added onto the others.  So, since we can't even trust our own to not bend us over, HELL NO to ANY TAXES!
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Offline BMG

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 07:32:33 AM »
I'm still an advocate of the FAIR tax. None of the other systems replace our current system, they only add on to it. And even if we somehow magically did away with our current system and then instituted a VAT all by itself, I'd be opposed to that for the very reason(s) Pan has just outlined. VAT = regressive in every sense of the word!
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
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"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline Libertas

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 08:11:22 AM »
VAT = Sales Tax on steriods.  Hell, I don't even like sales taxes!   ::gaah::
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 08:37:38 AM »
NO. 

There's the absolute without need to qualify it in any way.



Oh yes there is.


HELL NO.
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Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 08:42:05 AM »
VAT = Sales Tax on steriods.  Hell, I don't even like sales taxes!   ::gaah::

Sales taxes are the most iniquitable of all taxes...the one tax that truly does punish the poor.  And VAT is the worst implementation of sales tax possible.
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 10:05:21 AM »
I'm not saying I pine for a VAT tax - only that as a replacement for the progressive income tax, it would be preferable by a long-shot.

I See EW's point about sales tax "punishing" the poor, but an argument is easily made that a tax that does not kick in until one chooses to purchase something is the only voluntary tax possible. The poor and about 45% of the non-poor pay no federal income tax. We are at a tipping point of democratic tyranny when a simple non-tax-paying majority can elect to perpetually pilfer from the productive class. Replacing that with a sales tax - even a VAT tax - would eliminate that poisonous dynamic, and put skin in the game for nearly everyone.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline BMG

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2012, 10:35:38 AM »
I've posted this on a different thread here (concerning Herman Cain's 999 plan) but now seems like a good time to revisit it.

Quote
"A VAT is an *ADDITIONAL* tax on every step of production.  If someone picks cotton it is taxed because it was 'improved' when it was picked.  Spin it into thread...'improved', taxed again.  Dye it different colors...'improved', taxed again.  Turn it into a pair of socks...'improved', taxed again.  The corporation at the end of this line of 'improvements' pays all that extra tax when they receive the finished product because those taxes were passed along to each new link in the production chain and then they put that extra cost in the price of their finished product when they sell it to the consumer.  That extra cost is not called a tax then.  It isn't on the receipt as 'VAT tax' it is never 'seen' by the public.  That is exactly why politicians love it.  Because, just like our current system, the people never see the money leaving their wallets through taxation.  They only see the cost of a pair of socks jump from $5 to $6 and think it's just raising costs and not an oppressive tax by our Government.  As you can see, VAT is not a sales tax on corporations, it is a regressive tax on every single person in the country because the corporations only pass that extra tax burden on to you and I.  If you want some real damage done to our economy push for a VAT tax because that is what would happen if it were ever instituted.  Don't think so?  Simply look at the mediocrity of the economies of every country involved in the European Union which are required to institute a VAT if they want to join the EU."

I'm afraid I can not under ANY circumstances be convinced to accept a VAT. It is as insidious as our current system and the worst part of it is that it would most likely be *ADDED* onto our current system.

 
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.” 
- Patrick Henry

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates."
- Tacitus

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2012, 10:47:55 AM »
I See EW's point about sales tax "punishing" the poor,  

Do the poor have any obligation to contribute to the upkeep of the community?


Is that obligation less for someone who has less money than me?



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Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2012, 11:40:58 AM »
I See EW's point about sales tax "punishing" the poor,  

Do the poor have any obligation to contribute to the upkeep of the community?


Is that obligation less for someone who has less money than me?

Of course they do, something they currently get out of with a progressive income tax.

A one time flat rate income tax, along with an elimination of all "corporate" taxes would be much simpler to administer.

There are some usage based taxes that probably make sense:  using a small fuel tax for road construction, for example.  I would also note that since roads are specifically mentioned as a Constitutional duty of government, it makes sense to structure a tax levy that is tied to the use of them somehow.
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

Offline EW1(SG)

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 11:48:40 AM »
I'm not saying I pine for a VAT tax - only that as a replacement for the progressive income tax, it would be preferable by a long-shot.

I See EW's point about sales tax "punishing" the poor, but an argument is easily made that a tax that does not kick in until one chooses to purchase something is the only voluntary tax possible. The poor and about 45% of the non-poor pay no federal income tax. We are at a tipping point of democratic tyranny when a simple non-tax-paying majority can elect to perpetually pilfer from the productive class. Replacing that with a sales tax - even a VAT tax - would eliminate that poisonous dynamic, and put skin in the game for nearly everyone.

I am not convinced that it would.  I think the portion of the voting public that pays no (federal) income tax is unlikely to realize what portion of their income is "stolen" from them in sales (or value added) taxes already.  I am assuming that they just attribute costs to cost of production without realizing that they always pay a significant markup on items in tax; and while that may not be a valid assumption, anecdotally it seems to hold.

My proposal to motivate tax revolt would be to require a "Tax Facts" label, like the ridiculous "Nutrition Facts" label required on food that details what and where the tax composition of a consumer good is.  Until everybody knows, I think the economically uneducated are going to continue to vote for tyranny.

/Alternatively, we could require that all schools teach Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics...
My doctor told me to start killing people.  Not in those exact words, she said I had to reduce the stress in my life.

Same thing.

charlesoakwood

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Re: The VAT specter raises its ugly head...again
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

A sales tax only is the cleanest tax, eliminate food, basic clothing, doctor/prescription medication and housing sales tax and the poor
are exempted from penalty.