Author Topic: Symbiosis?  (Read 1868 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Symbiosis?
« on: October 12, 2012, 07:46:30 PM »
Quote
“Your genes make your brain and your brain has a certain structure and that structure is going to really make some people drawn to novelty, new ideas, change, diversity,” Haidt said. “Other people are going to prefer things that are sort of predictable, controllable, more safe. As these kids grow up, they are going to be exposed to all kinds of ideas and social groups. And maybe one group is more radical or obnoxious to authority and that seems really cool to the first kid but is sort of disturbing to the second kid. ”....“There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats; those are largely gone,” Haidt said. ”So now we’re not like two sports teams competing, we are like something from ‘Lord of the Rings.’ ‘We’ are the perfectly good people and ‘they’ are the forces of darkness. And that’s unfortunate, it’s hard to have a democracy without compromise, and it’s very hard to compromise when the people think the other side is evil.”
“If one side controls everything, then the whole country’s going to go to hell in very predictable ways,” he continued. “We’re all these moralistic creatures who are using our reasoning to support our side, and the other side is not evil, the other side does not hate America and want to destroy it. Both sides are perusing different morals, and we actually need elements of both in a society.”

Let me make this simple for you. The side that wants to use force to make you live according to their rules, to give up your wealth to fund what THEY think is right, IS EVIL.
I don't perceive them to be  evil because I like things to be orderly, and they don't.   I don't perceive them to be  evil because I believe in personal responsibility and the rule of law, and they believe in Group responsibility and they believe Might Makes Right.  I believe they are evil because they have no problem using force against me to get their way. We do not need evil, leeching, conniving, cheating , liars devoid of reason, lacking compassion for their victims, and bullying others  for our society to function. They are dead weight. A Parasite. A collection of non-contributing zeros who believe that they are entitled to enslave others and that they deserve to consume more value than they contribute at the point of a gun.  That is Evil nimrod.  And our society would prosper and thrive without them as we did when people self selected to cross the ocean and leave that same type of person behind in their native country.  The only "moral" they have is that they must get their way for what they think is right at the moment.  A conservative doing the same things will be criticized, but the liberal will always be given forgiveness.  They Hate individual freedom and inalienable rights  and that is the SAME as hating America. They Do wish to destroy us and our way of life. What the hell do you think Obama was talking about when he used the word "transformation"? 

Online Pandora

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 08:46:27 PM »
The author conflates morals with values.  They are not the same.  Morals are morals; there are no "different" ones, only differing values.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 08:58:27 PM »
Remember my little parable about the Badger. He quietly goes about the business of minding his own business. He makes few demands upon his neighbors - primarily, "Leave me alone".

I have a decently tuned sense of morality. These people should not be lulled into a false sense of prominence - I can very easily place that morality in a temporary safe space and go out and stack bodies like cordwood.

"There's a fister follering you" - Phil

Offline Glock32

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 09:02:02 PM »
I have a decently tuned sense of morality. These people should not be lulled into a false sense of prominence - I can very easily place that morality in a temporary safe space and go out and stack bodies like cordwood.

Pandora's signature comes to mind.
"The Fourth Estate is less honorable than the First Profession."

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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 09:04:39 PM »
I have a decently tuned sense of morality. These people should not be lulled into a false sense of prominence - I can very easily place that morality in a temporary safe space and go out and stack bodies like cordwood.

Pandora's signature comes to mind.

Yes it does. I love that tagline. I've used variations of it on leftists over the years and usually get widened eyes when I say it.

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 09:24:46 PM »
I have a decently tuned sense of morality. These people should not be lulled into a false sense of prominence - I can very easily place that morality in a temporary safe space and go out and stack bodies like cordwood.

Pandora's signature comes to mind.

Yes it does. I love that tagline. I've used variations of it on leftists over the years and usually get widened eyes when I say it.

Yes.  But does it stop them for more than a New York minute?  Survey says, "no".  

Their mindset is such that they refuse delivery of the full impact of a possible reality of which they cannot conceive.  They do not know history and so they believe they have normal Americans so cowed and demoralized that a modern day equivalent of Little Fat Boy dropped on them by us badgers is not worth serious consideration.

They're wrong.

All the "sloppy artists" in the world may exist in their filth, but one day we "uptight soldiers" are going to stop subsidizing them.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Online Pandora

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"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Sectionhand

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 06:15:34 AM »
Remember my little parable about the Badger. He quietly goes about the business of minding his own business. He makes few demands upon his neighbors - primarily, "Leave me alone".

I have a decently tuned sense of morality. These people should not be lulled into a false sense of prominence - I can very easily place that morality in a temporary safe space and go out and stack bodies like cordwood.

"There's a fister follering you" - Phil

I named my dog "Badger" ... his attitude is pretty much the same .

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 08:22:57 AM »
The author uses "Lord of the Rings" as an example of two sides who believe they are good and the other side is evil.

Problem is, Sauron and Saruman never had any disillusions that they were "good". Sauron was evil personified, Sauruman purposely served evil to sate his own lust for power and control, and all of their minions were evil, and knew themselves to be so.

And what was evil's objective in LotR? It was to destroy "The West".

What a vapid, vapid attempt at moral relativism and equivocation.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 08:38:10 AM »
The author uses "Lord of the Rings" as an example of two sides who believe they are good and the other side is evil.

Problem is, Sauron and Saruman never had any disillusions that they were "good". Sauron was evil personified, Sauruman purposely served evil to sate his own lust for power and control, and all of their minions were evil, and knew themselves to be so.

And what was evil's objective in LotR? It was to destroy "The West".

What a vapid, vapid attempt at moral relativism and equivocation.

I thought that ironic too.. LOTR is fundamentally about the inevitable corruption brought on by wielding  power- and Liberals want nothing other than to get power and stay in power and have demonstrated they are willing to lie, cheat, steal and bully others to do it. They have no honor. They have no sense that others have rights. This article  proves that most of the liberals have no clue that they started a war, one that isn't going to be healed over by a few words about civility.  Voting for Romney doesn't count  - because they do it only so they can feel popular again, and really feel no remorse, guilt, or personal responsibility over what they have done.  Before this is over shots will be fired  I haven't gotten to that level yet, but every 2012 yard sign or bumper sticker fills me with rage. I hate the  retarded arrogant fascists  who still think self-righteously  bullying their neighbor is a good idea.  I will not forgive them and I am filled with a burning desire to see the astonished faces on these barbarians when they finally  reap what they have sown. They won't understand it of course, and they will blame someone else for their misfortune, but as long as they suffer for the rest of their (hopefully short) lives, I am satisfied.


Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 10:12:38 AM »
I'll admit Weisshaupt, that I predicted widespread violence this summer - violence that didn't come and surprised the heck outta me. I can't shake the feeling that we're poised for a great unhinging and I believe that the catalyst reperesented by the welfare check - or the Øbomaphone. The reason they haven't rioted yet is because the checks are still coming and the phone still rings.

In LBJ's great Pavlovian experiment they have been taught to look to the gubmint for their next meal. They have rebuffed every suggestion, every invitation to do for themselves.

Well I want to turn off the spigot. IDC if they riot - I'll greet violence with force. If my so-called leaders won't join me in a return to sanity I want to get out of the pool - and take my toys with me. They can keep my SSI - I never expected it to come. I'll find some backwater community or go live in the woods and leave it for the morons to eat each other alive.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 11:05:35 AM »
I'll admit Weisshaupt, that I predicted widespread violence this summer - violence that didn't come and surprised the heck outta me. I can't shake the feeling that we're poised for a great unhinging and I believe that the catalyst represented by the welfare check - or the Øbomaphone. The reason they haven't rioted yet is because the checks are still coming and the phone still rings.

The MSM is still blowing sunshine.  If Mittens is elected,  7.8% unemployment will suddenly become bad,  the deficit will be suddenly bad, etc etc, and that  is when the liberal sheep  will get riled up into a new derangement syndrome.  We know they don't have the brains to notice conditions on the ground, and look to Savior Govt Obama to fix it.  With Mittens in, they will probably still get the same crap as before, but they will <THINK> suddenly they are getting shafted.  They can't rebel against "the man" when "the Man" is seen as one of them.   Meanwhile Romney will probably at least give the impression of being pro-business ( but I think we all can expect the same crony capitalism in actual policy) - but that impression might get people to ease up a bit and risk   and that will increase the money velocity, and all of that printed money that has been hoarded during Obama might come out of hiding...  and probably up inflation- giving the barbarians even more cause to riot.  The govt will up the balances on the EBTs "to help"  and in a hyper-inflationary environment, the one who benefits is the one who gets the money first -stores will continue to take the EBTs  because that puts them second in line and the charade doesn't end till the world ust stops letting us import things using dollars.

What can't continue, Won't.

 

Offline AlanS

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 04:33:47 PM »
I'll admit Weisshaupt, that I predicted widespread violence this summer - violence that didn't come and surprised the heck outta me. I can't shake the feeling that we're poised for a great unhinging and I believe that the catalyst represented by the welfare check - or the Øbomaphone. The reason they haven't rioted yet is because the checks are still coming and the phone still rings.

The MSM is still blowing sunshine.  If Mittens is elected,  7.8% unemployment will suddenly become bad,  the deficit will be suddenly bad, etc etc, and that  is when the liberal sheep  will get riled up into a new derangement syndrome.  We know they don't have the brains to notice conditions on the ground, and look to Savior Govt Obama to fix it.  With Mittens in, they will probably still get the same crap as before, but they will <THINK> suddenly they are getting shafted.  They can't rebel against "the man" when "the Man" is seen as one of them.   Meanwhile Romney will probably at least give the impression of being pro-business ( but I think we all can expect the same crony capitalism in actual policy) - but that impression might get people to ease up a bit and risk   and that will increase the money velocity, and all of that printed money that has been hoarded during Obama might come out of hiding...  and probably up inflation- giving the barbarians even more cause to riot.  The govt will up the balances on the EBTs "to help"  and in a hyper-inflationary environment, the one who benefits is the one who gets the money first -stores will continue to take the EBTs  because that puts them second in line and the charade doesn't end till the world ust stops letting us import things using dollars.

What can't continue, Won't.

 

My. Aren't you just a ray of sunshine. I pray you're wrong, but who knows for sure? I'm willing to give Mittens a chance before I quite hoarding goodies.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 09:19:21 PM »

EBTs, I like that, it makes a clear delineation.

He said he intends to cut them.  I expect, at the very least, no increase.
Also, I think, I keep hearing in not so direct language that he is going to
cut regulation.  If you can hold on for three years the lyrics to that old depression song may be on your lips...

Gold Diggers of 1933 - "We're in the Money"



Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 11:10:29 PM »

EBTs, I like that, it makes a clear delineation.

He said he intends to cut them.  I expect, at the very least, no increase.
Also, I think, I keep hearing in not so direct language that he is going to
cut regulation.

Mittens is a politician - a Republican who was elected in Massachusetts. In order to do that you either have to be comfortable lying to people's faces and telling them you are a liberal,  or you are just a liberal to begin with. If you go back and watch older videos of Mittens, he has the opposite position than he says he does now. Add to the fact that he can't see that Obamacare is wrong at BOTH the Federal AND the State level, as its a violation of the right of conscience, the right to property and the right of association. This is the man who said he wants to keep the provision of Obamacare where you can't be denied coverage for previous conditions.. meaning its no longer insurance and without govt subsidies and forced participation  provided by Obamacare, the insurance industry will die, or be so expensive that NO ONE can afford it.  If you don't care about the inalienable rights of your citizens or the math,  then you are a liberal, or just power hungry.  I am hoping for the latter, and that Mittens will dance with the ones that brought him - but a principled leader for our cause he is not, nor can he be.He is an appeaser. He will help us only so long as he believes he needs to appease us.

But as I said, the trap is already set. Say Mittens DOES ease up the regulations- and we have cheap gas again,and the economy starts to grow at a decent rate. The Fed is printing over 1 trillion dollars a year now. You need a consistent 6.6% growth rate in a GDP of15 trillion to give that money any meaning in the real world - and that is without trying to make up for the last 4 years of Obama, much less 8 years of Bush.  And 4 Trillion of that 15 Trillion GDP is govt spending to begin with, so if we assume Mittens actually "cuts" spending so that its the same as last year ( In Washington they assume a 6% increase, and anything less than that is a spending cut), that means the private economy of 11 Trillion has to grow by at least 9% to cover the trillion the government will spend in deficit via money printing- just to tread water, and we can't keep treading water without increasing growth further because the boomers are causing the entitlement spending to grow, and Obamacare only presses the accelerator- and don't forget with have increasing amounts of interest on that 1 Trillion we borrowed that the private economy ALSO has to make up for- over and above the 9% rate.  Repeal Obamacare and we go over the cliff at 55 mph instead of 90 mph, but over the cliff we will go.

If the economy starts to grow again, but at less than those (extremely unlikely) rates, and nothing is done to reform entitlements, which is what I expect the cowards to do,  then we get high inflation (and maybe hyperinflation) because the velocity of money will increase as people gain confidence in the recovery. This effect will probably kill any recovery pretty much as it starts. They could of course raise interest rates to try and kill the inflationary effect, but that will raise the governments borrowing rate as well, and again the burden of paying for that debt is placed on the private sector - again over the 9% it has to grow just to keep up with the original principle.

 The hole has just been dug too deep for us to "grow our way out" - I offer no rays of sunshine, because  the light at the end of the tunnel  is a inbound train, not daylight.  Cling to the walls and brace for impact. Math is a stubborn thing.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 11:03:10 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline AlanS

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2012, 02:08:36 PM »
Weisshaupt, I'm sorry if I sounded crass. Sarcasm doesn't type very well. I hope you'll forgive me.

I understand your point on Mittens. He's been sounding....on point?... on the campaign trail and I'm hoping he'll see that CONSERVATIVES are his base. Do I think he'll do all that's necessary for the country? Nope. But I do hope he at least gets us in the right direction. So this leaves me relatively optimistic. Like I've said before, I'll have to be half plastered to get in the booth and pull the lever for him. But he sure beats the alternative.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended you.
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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2012, 03:25:08 PM »
Quote
This is the man who said he wants to keep the provision of Obamacare where you can't be denied coverage for previous conditions...

This piece explains some items in the Mass. law ....

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/nov/26/romneys-original-health-reform-goals-differed-fina/

Elsewhere (and, typically, I cannot find it now) I read a piece that details Romney's plan for previous-conditions coverage using free market principles, not medical-insurance company mandates.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2012, 05:34:42 PM »
Weisshaupt, I'm sorry if I sounded crass. Sarcasm doesn't type very well. I hope you'll forgive me.
...Again, I'm sorry if I offended you.
No offense taken. I just don't see much cause for optimism even if we get Romney in. It will be "better" but given the point we are starting at, "better" might not mean a whole lot.  
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 09:03:22 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2012, 05:59:47 PM »
This piece explains some items in the Mass. law ....

Quote
The law that is in place in Massachusetts today is one part Romney and one part Democratic Legislature. Yes, the individual mandate was his idea — but his version was different. And there were legislative overrides of eight Romney vetoes, and regulations put in place by the Massachusetts Connector Board, a bipartisan board of stakeholders and governmental appointees charged with making key decisions about health care in the state....But what Romney doesn’t mention is that his original plan for an individual mandate included an “opt-out,” which would have allowed people who didn’t want to buy insurance avoid the mandate penalty if they purchased a kind of bond that would cover them in catastrophic events.

“Romney’s mandate was certainly a lighter mandate,” said Lischko. “If people wanted to pay out of pocket for doctors visits, we wanted to let them — but make sure everyone had some type of catastrophic coverage. The individual mandate as it stands today was determined through regulations after the law was passed.”

Any Mandate that violates the rights of others is still wrong.  If I am poor and 22 and I want to risk it, that should be my god given choice.  Romney obviously feels that isn't true. You want to solve the problem? Stop forcing hospitals to treat you if you can't pay, and have laws that require you to pay your bills or be subject to the same penalties and problems as those who don't pay other creditors.  Did Romney suggest that? No.  He is apparently just as willing to play tyrant as any other liberal. If you find the bit on forcing insurers to cover without preconditions based on market principles piece, I would be glad to look it over.. but my understanding is Romneycare just limited how long certain conditions must be covered, and I think there was an extra premium to pay for other conditions if you already had them - but that just allows the insurer to recoup some costs since the govt F'd up their actuarial table.

Again, if the government has to force an insurance company to provide such coverage - then I doubt there is much Free Market about it - and whatever it is, it can't be called insurance - its merely a pool to share medical costs at that point, with nothing to prevent you from joining the pool after you get sick- the extra premium is still  lower than your out of pocket, so there is still incentive to just wait.  But of course employers and individuals pay a "penalty" tax if they don't buy insurance, and Romney Sighed that. He didn't balk at it like you or I would knowing it was a terrible wrong.  If you are forced to join the pool against your will, it  is a violation of your inalienable right of association. Romney obviously felt such a violation was fine or he wouldn't have signed the final version of the bill.  If you don't recognize the rights of others - you don't deserve to have your rights recognized- including your right to continue breathing. Romney fits that bill, and we must never forget it.



Offline Libertas

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Re: Symbiosis?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 07:34:06 AM »
Because of the intentional acts of liberals and their weak-kneed facilitators (traitors) in the GOP we find ourselves in the most perilous economic times in human history...it may well be that this level of debt soiling the fiscal house, the level of loose monetary policy and growth killing landmines strewn about by a bloated government that sucks wealth into a black hole and punishes producers with idiotic and senseless regulation...none of this may have been seen since the last days of Rome...the next worldwide collapse could send ripples that make the Roman collapse look tame in comparison, so obviously I cannot discount Weisshaupts concerns out of hand.

I admitted up front that Romney would likely be a delaying action.  Use the time wisely!

BOT, I like what Pan wrote earlier - "The author conflates morals with values.  They are not the same.  Morals are morals; there are no "different" ones, only differing values."

The struggle such as it is comes down to this, their value system is 180 degrees out of phase with a normal human being capable of independent thought and not predisposed to throwing morals into the dumpster.  If anybody thinks there is "compromise" with these people, please disabuse yourself of such foolishness.  They are the enemy, period.  The time is well past due we think and act toward these people with only that mindset in place!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.