Topic: Time to Move On From the GOP?

[charlesoakwood]

Looking back to GOP transgressions of years past and comparing our reaction then to our reaction now is mental masturbation. The reality is that during the Reagan years, the Bush years, the Clinton years, or the Bush years, America was not faced with the reality of an existential crisis. In retrospect, the seeds were being sewn and cultivated all along, but the country as a whole was blissfully unaware.

I say this with all seriousness and with some shame: in my mind, threat to the existence of the United States of America was inconceivable to me until the past four years. The idea that the Democrat party was populated by people who literally hate this country never crossed my mind until about a year after 9/11/01.

My conservative ideals; my knowledge of conservative principles; my expectations of satisfactory politicians; my perception of the various crises; and my view on the endurance of the American spirit - all these things have been honed and shaped in me over the past decade.

I was raised being told that conservatives and liberals all want the same basic things, but have differing opinions as to how to arrive at that basic common vision for the country. I believed it to be a fundamental American trait - that we could differ and then settle those differences at the ballot box, which would obligate the citizenry to abide for at least two years until the next election.

I now see that that was never, ever true. It was a lie all along. But I, (like many others I suspect) believed it. So now my view is completely different than it was in the Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush years. My expectations of the Republican party were that they would be shaken into remembering the constitution, and their role as defenders of it. My expectations were dashed, and I just have very little hope that there is another chance for them to get it right, or that they would get it right if they were given the chance.

The two-party system has failed the people. George Washington warned us of exactly this result. Party politics - particularly two-party politics - is an extra-constitutional add-on that was never accounted for in the founding documents. It is now apparent that the document has buckled under the two-party system.

Put this at RS and let them choke on it.
I got my recommend button cocked and ready.

[trapeze]

They should rename Ace of Spades to "Insufficiently Conservative" to more accurately describe the prevailing POV of their readership.

Please elaborate.

[Alphabet Soup]

They should rename Ace of Spades to "Insufficiently Conservative" to more accurately describe the prevailing POV of their readership.

Please elaborate.

Even St. Ronald seems to be greeted with rolling eyes and knowing sideways glances from those guys. No one seems to be able to pass the Conservative partisan purity challenge. I recognize that there were/are shortcomings with everyone, including Reagan but jeebus man, can't they find anything positive about any of them?!

I would remind them that nothing much happens in a vacuum - that there must, by necessity, be some give and take.

[Libertas]

The two-party system has failed the people. George Washington warned us of exactly this result. Party politics - particularly two-party politics - is an extra-constitutional add-on that was never accounted for in the founding documents. It is now apparent that the document has buckled under the two-party system.

Madison. Federalist 10. On the Benefits of Factions.

By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.

Sadly that is exactly what the Liberals wish to do - eliminate factions by eliminating liberty.


(Re)Read the whole thing. You know the liberals never did.

The Founders were almost universally agreed in what would bring down America aka Liberty!

I can easily give dozens of quotes, let's just start with the most germane -

We are in the era of mob rule and governance dictated by the passions of the mob!  The mob wants free stuff, once given the drug it will not be removed easily!

"[D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few."
-- John Adams (An Essay on Man's Lust for Power, 29 August 1763) Reference: Original Intent, Barton (338); original The Papers of John Adams, Taylor, ed., vol. 1 (83)

And it is the selfish passion not the selfless passion that governs our masters now!

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics.  There must be a positive passion for the public good, the public interest, honour, power and glory, established in the minds of the people, or there can be no republican government, nor any real liberty: and this public passion must be superiour to all private passions." -- John Adams (letter to Mercy Warren, 16 April 1776) Reference: The Spirit of `Seventy-Six, Commager and Morris (109); original Warren-Adams Letters, vol. 1 (221-222)

There is no virtue, virtues as we and our Founders knew them are mocked, ridiculed and paid lip service to!  And the Fourth Estate (the Press) is complicit in denying to the American people the true character of their rulers!

"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers." -- John Adams (Dissertation on Canon and Feudal Law, 1765) Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett, 253.

Our rulers pass laws for us and exempt themselves!

"[W]here there is no law, there is no liberty; and nothing deserves the name of law but that which is certain and universal in its operation upon all the members of the community." --Benjamin Rush, letter to David Ramsay, circa April 1788

Our rulers have seized authority and use force to bend us to their will in violation of The Law, we are subject to the Law of Fallible Men, not the unfallible Law of Liberty and Liberty's author!

"The instrument by which [government] must act are either the AUTHORITY of the laws or FORCE. If the first be destroyed, the last must be substituted; and where this becomes the ordinary instrument of government there is an end to liberty! "--Alexander Hamilton, Tully, No. 3, 1794

We are fast approaching the end game, the enemies of liberty can only increase their force upon us and therefore remove the nation further and further from Founding Principles and our rights endowed by our Creator!

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” --Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."  -- Patrick Henry (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, 5 June 1778) Reference: The Debates of the Several State..., Elliot, vol. 3 (45)

And we must bid farewell to those out to destroy us and our liberty.

“If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” –Samuel Adams

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Benjamin Franklin

The time of choosing approaches, it is a simple pass/fail test.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson

[Pandora]

Very articulate and well-matched compilation, Libertas. 

Concur.

[RickZ]

Looking back to GOP transgressions of years past and comparing our reaction then to our reaction now is mental masturbation. The reality is that during the Reagan years, the Bush years, the Clinton years, or the Bush years, America was not faced with the reality of an existential crisis.

I disagree with that last president.  Bush '43 most certainly faced an existential threat, one that we face today and have faced for over 1400 years:  islam.  People as a rule have a long term memory problem and seem to have forgotten how severe 9/11 was in its impact, both short and long term.  With King Putt, we've simply thrown an existential deficit crisis on top of the military-political threat from islam.  Now we have an administration that is openly embracing the jihad.  How else to describe the administration's love for the muslim brotherhood's Arab Spring?  An Arab Spring in Egypt, no less, as if Egypt is populated by Arabs.  More language bastardization by the PTB.  It was an Islamic Jihadi Spring and my f*cking government supports it.  That's two.  Wait for the third, a nuclear Iran lobbing missiles like there's no 12th Imam.  That's three and that should do it.  If Iran nuked Sowdi Arabia, who would Barry support?  Or would he vote his typical Present! while hitting the links in the morning?

I say this with all seriousness and with some shame: in my mind, threat to the existence of the United States of America was inconceivable to me until the past four years. The idea that the Democrat party was populated by people who literally hate this country never crossed my mind until about a year after 9/11/01.

9/11 was what woke me up.  Bush went to Congress for approval to move into Iraq and got it, then had those very same Dems who voted for it try to weasel out of their vote by saying they were lied to, etc.  Then they became anklebiters to Bush's policies, putting every 'evil' on him.  Just look at the friggin' differences between Bush's Katrina 'failure' and the Jug Eared F*ck's handling of Sandy.  Abu Ghraib was the last straw.  Getting all riled up over prisoners with panties on their heads?  Seriously?  That's a national disgrace and scandal worthy of front page coverage for friggin' months?  Yet Benghazi, with a dead US Ambassador, doesn't rate even a small byline?  We have a media fully complicit with the DNC talking points and a populace who could not care less.

I was raised being told that conservatives and liberals all want the same basic things, but have differing opinions as to how to arrive at that basic common vision for the country. I believed it to be a fundamental American trait - that we could differ and then settle those differences at the ballot box, which would obligate the citizenry to abide for at least two years until the next election.

I now see that that was never, ever true. It was a lie all along. But I, (like many others I suspect) believed it.

It was true at one point, but not now.  Progressives, which is a nice word for communists, have been allowed to not-so-much push their ideology but to not have their ideology questioned.  The TEA Partiers with their diametrically opposed views were ridiculed.

Bill Clinton was bad enough for the Dem Party, but they declined even further with Al Gore as their standard bearer.  After the 2000 loss, he became transformed and now is the new face of Democrat Party corruption.  And let's not forget John  Effin' Kerry, a senator who lied about his service and awards yet insulted and denigrated his comrades in arms in his Winter Soldier testimony.  Somehow, the Dems just love them that kind of war 'hero' -- the kind with their own wing in the Hanoi Museum of the Vietnam War.  (I read that somewhere when the Swifties were skewering his military competence.)

But now the communists have thoroughly taken over the Donkey Party, quite easily and willingly I'll add.  Trying to get that message out is a conspiracy theory joke ridiculed by talking airheads and RINOs alike.  I maintained during the 2008 election that McCain could not wrap his mind around the fact that his opponent was of the very same ideology as those who tortured him all those years before.  No one would or could make the connection.  Mustn't offend the affirmative action half white half black guy by pointing out so obvious a reality.  Once I saw discussion of Barry's communist ideology laughed off, I knew that was it; hell, even calling Barry a socialist was ridiculed.  Then Beck called Barry a racist on his FOX show and the howls of 'you can't say that!' arose with colorful hues and vociferous cries across the land.  Yet here we are, with Barry now proposing to discriminate against Whites and Asians because he can -- and can get away with it.  We have no Rule of Law.  We have no standard of decency for public service.  We have no controls over our new political ancien regime (a contradiction if there ever was one), complete with our own 'let them eat cake' mentality:  Barry thinking AF1 is a 'spiffy ride' or Pelousy flying courtesy of the US Air Force and drinking courtesy of us.  Politicians should be made to release their tax returns each and every year they are in office or run for office.  We've let the no so little things slide.  Look at Sandy Burglar.  What he did, you or I would be in Federal prison with no questions asked.  But Sandy?  Not even a bloody slap on the wrist.  Their is no integrity in politics and certainly no minimally objective standards to which anyone is held.  Except conservatives, of course.

[Glock32]

Here is another example of what can be expected by "working within the GOP":

Conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh hit back hard Monday against Republican critics who say his commentary hurt GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney’s failed presidential run.

GOP strategist Mike Murphy said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that the primaries were “driving the Republican brand right now to disaster” and that Republicans needed to acquire a view of the country “that’s not right out of Rush Limbaugh’s dream journal.”


Limbaugh’s response: “What, folks, did I or any of you have to do with the Republican primary? Did not Murphy get the candidate he wanted? All these consultants, do you realize they get rich no matter who wins or loses? Little-known secret. They get rich no matter who wins or loses,” Limbaugh said on his radio show, according to a show transcript.

“But [in] the Republican primary, as far as he’s concerned, there were too many conservatives in it saying too many stupid things,” Limbaugh added. “We need to get rid of conservatism, is what is he’s saying.”

Next up was GOP strategist Steve Schmidt, who last week at a University of Delaware panel discussion said that Limbaugh’s “white, 65 plus and rural” audience is “not what the country looks like anymore” and that Limbaugh was driving a message of “total ludicrous nonsense.”

Read more: http://joemiller.us/2012/11/rush-limbaugh-takes-on-gop-critics/#ixzz2CmYXWaGL

[Libertas]

Yeah, the moderate big government democrats who call themselves republicans are calling the shots and dishing out the blame on those who have had it with moderate big government democrats who call themselves republicans!

Shocking!

/

The GOP really needs to be killed off, the exodus started this recent election and it will really pick up steam now!

Fvck 'em!  They can rot in Hell with the dem's!

 

[Glock32]

Oh yeah, they're done. This party is history. And long overdue. They keep talking about this or that thing not being "what the country is like anymore" -- yeah, and why is that?  Maybe because this timid party never did anything to prevent its own obsolescence?

Everything they are complaining about now reveals that their mindset is all about party. It's just about seeing an R next to a name. They're basically saying "you have to forget about all that hokey crap you believe in and just let us become indistinguishable from the Democrats. Then we'll win!"

The history of America's decline, if it is ever recorded, will conclude that the Republican Party failed in its most fundamental task: being the opposition. At this point working with them would only lend some measure of approval to their results, and that is something I cannot be a part of. Done with 'em.

[ToddF]

But I have a question for you guys: Were you this angry with the GOP when Reagan was president? Because Ronald Reagan - God love him and God rest his soul - grew government, cut deals with Tip O'Neil, and did slip in some slick tax increases after his big tax cuts. Government grew under Reagan. He was not a purist, but he did know that half a loaf is better than none.

No.  I knew demographics experts said we have 30 years or so to fix everything, despite the temporary fix of a SS tax increase.  We did manage do quite well, and mask future problems with the IT boom of the 90's.  Thanks to George Bush introducing us to $400 billion and up deficits, and Obama institutionalizing $1,000,000,000,000 deficits, the time for eating that s**t sandwich is over.

I will no longer vote for anyone who won't take that number down.  I'll start with my own rep, Paulsen.  I'm sure he's a nice guy but he's never shown any leadership towards salvaging a future for America. 

[IronDioPriest]

...Thanks to George Bush introducing us to $400 billion and up deficits, and Obama institutionalizing $1,000,000,000,000 deficits, the time for eating that s**t sandwich is over.

I will no longer vote for anyone who won't take that number down.  I'll start with my own rep, Paulsen.  I'm sure he's a nice guy but he's never shown any leadership towards salvaging a future for America.  

And those who have, like my rep Bachmann, or someone like Ron Paul, are considered among the GOP ruling class to be the extreme fringe.

Not my party.

[charlesoakwood]

Ditto

[LadyVirginia]

I can't help but think that we're in the same boat as the UK with their parties.  They're all the same --they are reduced to arguing degrees of pain to inflict on the populace.

I remember as a kid back in the 70's going with my mom to meetings.  I'd hear people talk about the cultural changes, if we got abortion euthanasia was next, one world government, etc and those suggestions were knocked as loony.

I heard that something like 3 million GOPers didn't vote.  I wonder if those aren't people who see culture as the number one problem not just politics.  Even the economy wasn't going to move them to a different view.  

I heard a DJ turned talk show host saying one day in response to a caller's views on current music that his grandparents thought Elvis was shocking and leading us down to trouble.  I looked at my adult daughter and said "Maybe his grandparents were right."  

There are too many people in this country infected with the niceness virus.  They judge everything by whether it's nice or not.  Censoring gay literature isn't nice.  Using a plastic bag isn't nice. Etc.

Too many people are post-Christian, post-American in this country who think they are Christian and American.  BUT they think their actions occur in a vaccum.  Never accepting that their actions combined with all the others impacts society.  No one wants their ox gored.  

[Pandora]

...Thanks to George Bush introducing us to $400 billion and up deficits, and Obama institutionalizing $1,000,000,000,000 deficits, the time for eating that s**t sandwich is over.

I will no longer vote for anyone who won't take that number down.  I'll start with my own rep, Paulsen.  I'm sure he's a nice guy but he's never shown any leadership towards salvaging a future for America. 

And those who have, like my rep Bachmann, or someone like Ron Paul, are considered among the GOP ruling class to be the extreme fringe.

Not my party.

Exactly.  And look at Alan West.  I wasn't happy with everything he said and voted for while he held his seat, but the man FIGHTS.  And so ....... he had to go.  The E-GOP saw to it.

[IronDioPriest]

I will urge someone like Palin, Paul, or someone who has a chance to irreparably damage the GOP's chance to win in 2016 to run 3rd party. That is, IF we are fortunate enough to have an election in 2016.

I'd love to see Hillary Clinton get 48% of the vote, Pubbie Milquetoast get 25%, and Ron Paul or Sarah Palin get 27%. Put the GOP in its grave once and for all, or at the very least, force a conservative realignment. But truly, I think such wishing is academic. 2012 rendered elections all but meaningless.

[ToddF]

Well, Ron is still fringe to me.  Rand sends a thrill down my leg, though.

[Alphabet Soup]

I can't help but think that we're in the same boat as the UK with their parties.  They're all the same --they are reduced to arguing degrees of pain to inflict on the populace.

I remember as a kid back in the 70's going with my mom to meetings.  I'd hear people talk about the cultural changes, if we got abortion euthanasia was next, one world government, etc and those suggestions were knocked as loony.

I heard that something like 3 million GOPers didn't vote.  I wonder if those aren't people who see culture as the number one problem not just politics.  Even the economy wasn't going to move them to a different view.  

I heard a DJ turned talk show host saying one day in response to a caller's views on current music that his grandparents thought Elvis was shocking and leading us down to trouble.  I looked at my adult daughter and said "Maybe his grandparents were right."  

There are too many people in this country infected with the niceness virus.  They judge everything by whether it's nice or not.  Censoring gay literature isn't nice.  Using a plastic bag isn't nice. Etc.

Too many people are post-Christian, post-American in this country who think they are Christian and American.  BUT they think their actions occur in a vaccum.  Never accepting that their actions combined with all the others impacts society.  No one wants their ox gored.  

I hear every bit of what you're saying LV. The "niceness" comment struck me particularly. My eldest brother was one mean, screwed up SOB. A junkie, a petty crook, and a dope dealer. It used to crack me up when I would overhear him on the telephone using a condescending and panderingly phony voice. I once asked him about it and he smirked at me and something about "catching more MF'rs with honey than with vinegar". I laughed at him and told him that he may have thought that he was fooling someone but in truth he was only fooling himself.

[LadyVirginia]

A third party?  

I'd vote with it if it was a nationally known figure.


I think Palin could do it now.  I don't see anyone else.

But a known person isn't enough.  See: Romney.

We would need a grassroots campaign like the BO one.  I don't know that our side has the energy and drive to do that. 


 

[charlesoakwood]

...and a lot of money.

[Glock32]

The story of the GOP can be read by looking at what the two parties consider "compromise".

For the GOP, compromise means "marginalize the conservatives and cave in on the things they care about. Bunch of anachronistic throwbacks anyway."

For the Democrats, compromise means "and for our part, we agree to not demand this or that. Yet."

In my view, that is the essence of the problem with this party. The Republicans give up real things that were already an established part of the culture, whereas Democrats "give up" hypothetical things (and only for a while).