Topic: What Do You Score On This Survey?

[Pandora]

Whether one has children or not has no bearing on the belief that all will fail.
If all fails there will nothing.  Nothing for anyone who survives, child or adult,

Nope, I'm not taking that for answer.  Do you have children, Charles?

[Libertas]

One day, we will all be the perfect libertarians......not that we embrace thier every believe, but for the reason all social programs will collapse under thier own weight at some point. Presto, we will be in that special place, embraced by the most strident libertarian.

I'm closer than y'all.  Yee haa, I'm ahead of the curve.   

Going back to what Trap said earlier - "I encourage you to take the test again with a mind toward what should be rather than what might be possible to accomplish in today's political climate."

That's what I did...a lot of "yes" answers...I didn't bother with the how or the when or how long it might take...just the flat bottom no bullshyt what the goal must be.

[Weisshaupt]

"SS isn't a critical driver as of yet, and other, similar, programs are likely to bring the system down long before it is."

Right, it is a virtual strawman; it's a distraction, a siphon of energy and concentration from the many more needy entitlements and blood sucking alphabet agencies that deserve the ax.  It's also the most entrenched gaining 10,000 new members a day while many of the more recent, 1964 forward, are falling more and more into general disfavor and more vulnerable to elimination.  However, if one believes all is to fail, why care about it at all.

 

 If there were an hypothetical opportunity to abolish SS outright and immediately , I get the sense you would oppose doing so, and would willingly sign me up to have money stolen from my paycheck every month so you can continue to enjoy the standard of living in retirement you currently have at my expense,  a retirement I might add, that I will never have. Ever. Not at 70. Not at 80.  And that is what pains me.

SS is certainly not the bulk of the problem, but voting to continue it in any form and for any length of time would still be wrong, because the program and the idea are wrong in any form - even if its funded by cuts in other programs.  The Promises made by SS are just as unsustainable and unpayable - and if bought more time by the cancellation of other programs would only escalate till  the same fate is upon us again.  There Ain't no Such thing as a Free Lunch.  Kicking this can down the road so I get paid would only hurt my kids or (maybe someday)  my Grandkids, and I won't do that to them. Hell, I would give up any benefits and continue paying into the system in exchange for my kids never having to.  Because even though I believe all is to Fail, I still have a duty to my children, and every little bit counts- even it its defusing  the time bomb that goes off in 50 years instead of the one that goes of in 5.
.

[Weisshaupt]

Whether one has children or not has no bearing on the belief that all will fail.
If all fails there will nothing.  Nothing for anyone who survives, child or adult,

I disagree Charles. A person without children might be very willing to sacrifice the futures of other's children, if they think that will let them kick the can down the road far enough so that when all fails, they aren't there to see it.  Having kids changes your time horizon and stake in what happens - a lot. Yes, I would rather take the money currently stolen form me and apply it towards my preps... because this  Collapse isn't the end of the world.  Its the end of the World as We have known it.  Entitlement programs may not survive ( except  perhaps as a form of slavery entitling you to food, shelter, clothing and a "job") and our institutions and laws are going to change dramatically - for the better or for the worse as God decides.  But I am going to do all I can, every day I can, to preserve some security and safety for my children.  That is what I need the "kick the can" time for, even it is measured in months.  Before this is over I am sure we will be on the dole, and  in as many ways as I can contrive to get us there, but you can bet I will fight  against and try to abolish every program I depend on if the opportunity arises - because I want my Kids to live free of those shackles.
 

[robins111]

89... apparently I'm in tinfoil territory..

[IronDioPriest]

If there were an hypothetical opportunity to abolish SS outright and immediately , I get the sense you would oppose doing so, and would willingly sign me up to have money stolen from my paycheck every month so you can continue to enjoy the standard of living in retirement you currently have at my expense,  a retirement I might add, that I will never have. Ever. Not at 70. Not at 80.  And that is what pains me.

This, of course, exemplifies the inherent evil of Social Security perfectly, and why politicians are able to wield it as a weapon, while others cower from the same weapon.

Pitting those receiving it against those paying for it and vice-versa is exactly what the Leftists want, and it is the exact reason it is so difficult or impossible for reformers to touch it politically.

You may have a point in being "pained" Weisshaupt, but it isn't Charles inflicting the pain. He was lied to, as were we all. Now we all have to incorporate the lie and what it means to us into our reality.

Those who are looking forward to some semblance of retirement realize we will never get what was promised, and the promise is one of the components that is destroying the country. It is natural for us to look at those still receiving it and ask why they should be able to cling to it.

But those who have retired and are already receiving it are stuck. What the hell are they supposed to do? It is natural that even if they realize the situation fully, they would seek to end the current system only if measures are taken to phase out what exists, and replace it, in whatever form.

The back-and-forth between the two of you makes Obama smile. His wedge is working. I'm not criticizing the discourse - it's a good and valuable discussion to have. I'm just noting that from my perspective, it seems that nobody can have the "right" answer when the beginning premise is a fundamental systemic institution that is based completely on a lie.

[trapeze]

The generational theft that is inherent in SS is bad enough. What really adds injury to injury with insult thrown in for good measure is the death tax.

A lot of people can say that 1) they never expected to ever see a dime from SS and 2) they don't need it anyway.

These are the people who worked hard and did well in life. The makers rather than the takers.

They should be able to live free and do what they want to with their earnings and that includes passing it on to their children. But the death tax ensures that this will not happen to most of those who can afford to do it. Instead their wealth is confiscated upon death and re-distributed to the takers.

Situations such as these are what breed libertarian people.

[Weisshaupt]

[ He was lied to, as were we all. Now we all have to incorporate the lie and what it means to us into our reality.

Yes, he was lied to, and he may have believed the lie as many did.  That makes me and my children responsible how? Why must the last generation of the Ponzi be allowed to continue to forcefully steal thier "due" from those who they know will never be in the Ponzi?

  I am not the one asking someone else to live their life for my benefit because I foolishly believed a lie, much less proposing that they be forced to do so at gun point.. . That is the wrong inherent in any proposed system that "phases out" SS while leaving those currently receiving it untouched.  Its a claim that because you were lied to and mugged , you have a right to mug   innocent bystanders in return to get your "due"  

But those who have retired and are already receiving it are stuck. What the hell are they supposed to do?

Why, exactly,  are they Stuck? They are supposed to do the same thing I have to do - that they EXPECT ME TO DO while paying their bounty. . Work till I can't work anymore and then rely on my kids, family, friends and church  to take care of me and repay them as I am able,  till eventually to  wander off one day never to return because I  have become overly burdensome. If its good enough for me, why isn't it good enough for them? They had full lives, rich with opportunities I will never see and my kids will only dream of.  This entire society lived high on the hog off of the debt piled upon me and my children, and its somehow unfair to ask they they pay the price right along with me?

You may have a point in being "pained" Weisshaupt, but it isn't Charles inflicting the pain.

I can't speak for CO personally, and really my beef isn't with him, or any one specific individual here.  My problem is with the hypothetical individual, who given the (again, purely hypothetical and will never happen in real life)   opportunity to abolish the system  outright,  instead votes to perpetuate it - by kicking the can by whatever means - so that it will  claim more victims and ensure their own  lives are not disrupted. Doing so would be both evil, and wrong, and SHOULD drive a wedge between people, because its a declaration that others should live their lives in service of their lives - sacrifice their hopes and dreams so the promises made to them may be kept, while every promise made to me is broken.  That vote makes them complicit in the crime. It IS them inflicting the pain.  The "fairness' of SS was that each generation would get their turn. Anyone who votes to continue taking their turn  knowing full well their own children and grandchildren will not only never get a turn,  but will be hampered and  hurt for the rest of their lives by that action, is immoral and evil beyond my comprehension.

Yes, by all means continue to suck as much money out of the beast as possible, and get back as much as you can from your  lifetime of labors poured into this foul system. But also understand you are taking  stolen money from mobsters.. and in so doing joining in this long running criminal enterprise of a Ponzi Scheme. . and that enterprise has Victims.  You are not "getting your own money back"- because your money was already redistributed long ago.  Being a victim does not make it legitimate to victimize others.  the Liberals will only let you be a sucker (victim)  or a cheater (looter) and Living as an "Honest Man" is off the table at the moment, and so  I bow to that reality. But part of that reality is that no one who gets a government check is innocent. You could refuse to draw SS,  and refuse to participate in or contribute to the lie,  but we also  know that  won't prevent  that money from being  stolen and the victims from being victimized, and after all, as we can't help the victims we might as well recoup a bit of our losses. . That we are all sinners in this way shouldn't be a surprise.  But opposing a  vote where you COULD stop the victims from being victimized SHOULD change that calculus.

[Libertas]

89... apparently I'm in tinfoil territory..

That's OK, the view up here is fine.   

So far I am rocking the score at 121, followed by Pan at 110 and then your 89 and Rick's 84...most everyone else in the 60-70 range...MNHawk closing out the lower end at 53.

Mean average is 79, mode is 72.

[LadyVirginia]

I am not the one asking someone else to live their life for my benefit because I foolishly believed a lie, much less proposing that they be forced to do so at gun point.. . That is the wrong inherent in any proposed system that "phases out" SS while leaving those currently receiving it untouched.  Its a claim that because you were lied to and mugged , you have a right to mug   innocent bystanders in return to get your "due"  



Quote from: IronDioPriest on Today at 10:08:04 AM

But those who have retired and are already receiving it are stuck. What the hell are they supposed to do?


Why, exactly,  are they Stuck?

My mom's in her late 70's.  She knew.  She got involved in politics 35- 40 years ago.  I remember hearing talk about how SS was going to run out of money back then. This in not "new" news. I think it was even something Reagan talked about and she loved him.  A lot of people decided to go into denial because they get up everyday and nothing has happened yet and so they expect tomorrow to be the same.

It's not just seniors who are wailing they got duped and need it.  There are plenty of people <65 still thinking it will get fixed for them even if it's a modified form or at a reduced amount.


per Trap's suggestion I retook the survey.  Moved from 68 to 85.

[Predator Don]

 Watching the political landscape......Reality is the SS ponzi scheme will never end until enough states default to send the nation into bankruptcy..... And even then SS will be a point argued as we re build.

Without consideration for any individual, I would love to see SS abolished. Ditto the dept of education, FEMA, food stamps, housing aid and any other giveaway program or alphabet agency whipped up since the new deal. They are simply not the business or responsibility of govt. we keep the military and everything else should "go the hell away".

Sure, there will be pain. Reversing this flustercluck will touch everyone. It's never gonna happen. So, since it isn't, I selfishly want to collect some of the  bounty collected from me, against my will, all these decades. Remember, it's a Ponzi scheme, so of course you are not collecting the money robbed from you.

Matter of fact, I regard it as doing my part to tear this sucker down. I believe we all realize NOTHING will be done to correct our course....... Many here have advocated getting govt cheese to assist in its destruction. I desperately want to do my part.

[LadyVirginia]

  I desperately want to do my part.

So do I.

[benb61]

I know I'm going to sound like a total a$$hole here but,

The money I put into my bank account is not the money that I take out of it.  The bank loans that money out to people who repay it.  So SS was supposed to be looked at like a future savings account.  The gov didn't trust that the people would save for their old age and passed the SS law to force them to save.  As far as I'm concerned the monies they took from me and forced me to "save" for my old age is mine.  I didn't authorize them to give my money to anyone and I at least expect to have the dollars that were taken from me returned when I reach the requisite age.  Shutting down the alphabet agencies and curtailing government waste should be able to give all of us our money back.  I do not even care about ROI, I just want my initial investment back.  It may not be much but it is mine.

[IronDioPriest]

I don't think that's assholish. I think it's a perfectly reasonable point of view. I also think Weisshaupt makes a very strong case for the opposite. Thus is the nature of debating the result of systemic lies.

[BigAlSouth]

BAS = 67

[Weisshaupt]

So, since it isn't, I selfishly want to collect some of the  bounty collected from me, against my will, all these decades. Remember, it's a Ponzi scheme, so of course you are not collecting the money robbed from you.
Matter of fact, I regard it as doing my part to tear this sucker down. I believe we all realize NOTHING will be done to correct our course....... Many here have advocated getting govt cheese to assist in its destruction. I desperately want to do my part.

Yep. As I said, my offense is in the entirely hypothetical, never gonna happen, vote to alter the system  to make the persecution of the last set of rubes explicit and by the "consent" of those who will get paid on their backs.  I fully accept that given that it can't and won't be  be stopped ( till numerical reality stops it)  everyone should milk it for all its worth. All I ask is that no one pretend they are taking only what they are "due", for in truth no promises were made, and no legal obligations to deliver were incurred (as they ARE in a Ponzi Scheme run by a private party )  The Supreme Court made that obvious.

[Predator Don]

I know I'm going to sound like a total a$$hole here but,

The money I put into my bank account is not the money that I take out of it.  The bank loans that money out to people who repay it.  So SS was supposed to be looked at like a future savings account.  The gov didn't trust that the people would save for their old age and passed the SS law to force them to save.  As far as I'm concerned the monies they took from me and forced me to "save" for my old age is mine.  I didn't authorize them to give my money to anyone and I at least expect to have the dollars that were taken from me returned when I reach the requisite age.  Shutting down the alphabet agencies and curtailing government waste should be able to give all of us our money back.  I do not even care about ROI, I just want my initial investment back.  It may not be much but it is mine.

No you don't..... But this ROI.....well.....

who wouldn't invest their money in a product which guarantees less than a 1 percent return, you can't collect the full amount until you reach a certain age and when you begin to collect, restricts any additional income you could earn and if you die prematurely, you don't collect a cent and it doesn't go to your family.

What's not to love.

[Predator Don]

So, since it isn't, I selfishly want to collect some of the  bounty collected from me, against my will, all these decades. Remember, it's a Ponzi scheme, so of course you are not collecting the money robbed from you.
Matter of fact, I regard it as doing my part to tear this sucker down. I believe we all realize NOTHING will be done to correct our course....... Many here have advocated getting govt cheese to assist in its destruction. I desperately want to do my part.

Yep. As I said, my offense is in the entirely hypothetical, never gonna happen, vote to alter the system  to make the persecution of the last set of rubes explicit and by the "consent" of those who will get paid on their backs.  I fully accept that given that it can't and won't be  be stopped ( till numerical reality stops it)  everyone should milk it for all its worth. All I ask is that no one pretend they are taking only what they are "due", for in truth no promises were made, and no legal obligations to deliver were incurred (as they ARE in a Ponzi Scheme run by a private party )  The Supreme Court made that obvious.

And it is the very reason, if abolished, I wouldn't complain.

[Weisshaupt]

I know I'm going to sound like a total a$$hole here but,

The money I put into my bank account is not the money that I take out of it.  The bank loans that money out to people who repay it.  So SS was supposed to be looked at like a future savings account.  The gov didn't trust that the people would save for their old age and passed the SS law to force them to save.  As far as I'm concerned the monies they took from me and forced me to "save" for my old age is mine.  I didn't authorize them to give my money to anyone and I at least expect to have the dollars that were taken from me returned when I reach the requisite age.  Shutting down the alphabet agencies and curtailing government waste should be able to give all of us our money back.  I do not even care about ROI, I just want my initial investment back.  It may not be much but it is mine.

  To use your bank example, you deposited your money in a (not FICA insured) private bank account. You did so because a gang of thugs showed up at your door (and mine, and everyone else's)  and demanded you open an account there or they would break your kneecaps.  The bankers, being corrupt from the outset,  and despite "not being authorized",  spent some of your money themselves, gave some to bribe people to keep them in power, and loaned the rest to buddies  would could never in a million years replay the loan principle, much less with interest.  The Bank eventually becomes insolvent and you lose  your entire deposit and the interest owed.  Would you then expect to get your money back? After you did loose your money, would you take up a gun and start collecting it from bystanders on the street? Yes, you were forced to invest there.. so what? We all were. Those thugs came to my house too you know....

I don't see how it makes any difference that this was a Public endeavor instead of a private one - other than they were more honest about it.  The Supreme Court announced within a few years of its inception that your "account" was not insured, that the "bank"  had no obligation to pay you anything,  your "deposit" was simply a tax, and no contract to provide "benefits" was implied or in place. . So no, its not "your money" - because it  was never on "deposit" and SSI was never a BANK.  

And no, shutting down agencies WILL not get you, me or anyone their money back - because all you are doing is reallocating the money to make Social Security deposits whole as a bailout.
It probably won't even reduce the tax burden.. and that is where that bail out comes from. .. its   Money taken at gunpoint from taxpayers ( which many retirees no longer are)  many of whom are "new to the bank"  and "just off the street"   And those "new depositors" will be just as screwed later  as you would be now if you didn't get yours  because its implicitly a corrupt Ponzi scheme in any society where the population isn't 100% stable ( which is all of them)  It is still the younger generation paying for  the bailout  and it is still the younger generation that gets screwed. All you are saying is that you aren't willing be be screwed along with them and that they they should be sacrificed so you don't have to.  That if you are over 65 that makes you special and you shouldn't have to suffer along with the rest of us, because they have shaken you down longer.

[Pandora]

Both sides of the argument have been presented here and, I have to say, I agree with Weisshaupt.  And for anybody that won't, or can't, the reality is reality doesn't care about for how long and how much you paid, the money's gone and it isn't coming back anytime soon, if for no other reason that the young are catching on to the Ponzi-scheme system-rigging.  Now if they would only catch on to the "education" loan system-rigging as well.  Nevertheless, that which cannot last, won't.

The differences of opinions I see here, and I see them as passionate not mean or selfish, tells me a whole bunch of people in groups like ours, because of their self-interest, still have some ways to go on the issue of how much one should demand from another, and I say this with all due respect to my friends.

The Jews spent a generation, 40 years, wandering the desert before God relented, in order that those with the slave mentality would die out.  I hope to hell our regeneration will not take 40 years.