Topic: New Fuel-Cell Based Generator for Teotwawki

[Weisshaupt]

2-80KW generator, using new tech, 80% efficient, runs on propane, nat gas, diesel or biomass, trialing in Dec, available next year

That is, if the hype is to be believed.  Current conventional  Generators are about 15-30%  efficient.  This could also  Potentially could be used in conjunction with the Wood Gasification stuff previously discussed. 

So for those of you who can't afford the PV solar, pay attention to this as it develops.  This becomes VERY VIABLE, VERY QUICKLY if they deliver on the above promises. These also run quiet, and hot enough you might work some free hot water into the bargain. 

THIS IS HUGE> REALLY,  REALLY HUGE if the promises are true.
If you run on Natural Gas, which is typically $10-15 per 1000 cubic feet - or 301KW hrs, *80% = 241, so between  $0.04 and 0.06 per KW-HR - That is right - you CAN RUN YOUR HOUSE WITH THIS CHEAPER THAN THE ELECTRIC COMPANY CAN SUPPLY YOU WITH POWER.
This would make distributed generation WAY more commonplace. So you can bet the Govt will kill this
They claim, Trials start in December - should be available in 2014 - if the collapse doesn't kill it and the Govt decides to allow us to have it  (no way in hell)

But here is the kicker.. Current System Costs of Fuel Cells is around $5000-7000 per KW - System costs for Solar are lower now than when I purchased -  around $4000/KW for a larger  (8k) system. with batteries. My system was closer to $6000/KW - mostly because the panels have been hlalved in price in the last year or so.   

But if  they do reduce the price by the claimed 90%? A  (their minimum) 2 KW system will be around $1400. (does that include the inverter etc? Maybe.. )
If you are grid tied, you can generate 48KW-Hrs per day ( more than enough for the house) a and use the grid to pull more than 2 KW if you need more than that instantaneously in your home.  Or get a 4KW  system for around $3000 and just sell back to the grid the extra 76 kw-hr you DON'T use each day.  Problem is, your house, will NEED (at least) 4KW of power, and I could see them changing the net-metering for these really, really fast if the price goes that low. ( and they should..  The power companies would be screwed out of existence - basically becoming big batteries for the rest of us - and collecting just the reconnect fees.  With is this system they would OWE YOU more free electricity than you could ever use, and  all they could collect from you would be the connection fee (and taxes of course!)

 So the answer of course is taking the DC from the fuelcell directly into Batteries  and connecting up to an inverter capable of delivering the 4-6KW you might need at any given moment inside your home ( A Electric range will want 4K of that, your well pump can want as much as 6K for a short period during start up)  - The good news is the batts can be much smaller - needing to assist the Fuel Cell just during the 60 minutes you are cooking dinner or the 10 minutes water is being pumped etc, and then allowed to recharge..  So A good set of appropriate batteries will run $1200-2000.  The 6000 Watt  240 V inverter another 2K.   So yeah, now the costs are climbing again- but  for a total systems outlay of about $6000  you can fully power your home (or teotwawki camp) for  $0.06 on Natural gas. (Ka-BAM!)

But you don';t have Natuarl gas at your rural teotwawki place? Use propane. Yep more expensive...

Total energy in Propane is  46.44 megajoules per kilogram- so you would get just under 13 Kw-hr per Kg of propane  in a 100% efficient system. If this system delivers 80% as promised, that will  will get you 11.14 KW Hrs per KG. A Typical home needs 15-20 KW-hrs per day.  Typical propane costs are $2.50 - $3 a gallon, (which is 1.9 KG. )  Using  the high range at $3, your cost per  KW-Hr with this would be about.$.14  - - which is right in line with New England rates, and  just a bit more expensive than rates elsewhere.  If you are at $2.5 a gallon its $0.11 per KW-Hr - so still a bit more, but Hey - you are running your own power plant.  As long as there is propane in the tank, you are good to go.

Conventional Generators will deliver  2- 4 KW per Kg of Propane (15-30% efficient), at a cost between 20-40 cents per KW-Hr.
Of course, come Teotwawki, who knows what those prices become, but you can be sure that the Fuel Cell will save you if propane becomes dear ( and as I said, other sources are possible) . Again- for a total systems outlay of about $6000  you can fully power your home (or teotwawki camp)  on Propane for 11-14 cents a KW-HR.

[trapeze]

That 80% efficiency number comes with a catch:

When used to provide both power and heat, it runs at 80-percent efficiency.

That means that it is using a significant amount of the energy from the fuel to provide heat for structures during winter months. During non-heating periods that energy would not be used (it would be shed to the atmosphere) and the efficiency would plummet. In other words, they haven't figured out an end run around the laws of thermodynamics. I suppose that some of that waste heat could be used to generate domestic hot water but you can only take so many showers and wash so many dishes before you're back to dumping it into the atmosphere.

Still...I will be interested to see the nuts and bolts of the thing when they have it ready for prime time. It can't be worse than what is available now and any improvement at all is still an improvement.

[Libertas]

That 80% efficiency number comes with a catch:

When used to provide both power and heat, it runs at 80-percent efficiency.

That means that it is using a significant amount of the energy from the fuel to provide heat for structures during winter months. During non-heating periods that energy would not be used (it would be shed to the atmosphere) and the efficiency would plummet. In other words, they haven't figured out an end run around the laws of thermodynamics. I suppose that some of that waste heat could be used to generate domestic hot water but you can only take so many showers and wash so many dishes before you're back to dumping it into the atmosphere.

Still...I will be interested to see the nuts and bolts of the thing when they have it ready for prime time. It can't be worse than what is available now and any improvement at all is still an improvement.

 

We will need to keep an eye on this endeavor.

[Weisshaupt]

The big news with this tech is that the operating temp is going down, and the power density is up ( or watch video here)- to the point where the you get the 90% reduction in cost.

As far as efficiency goes, I am having difficulty getting a real number. Some articles seem to suggest that 40-60% electrical conversion is the norm for Fuel Cells and this one is unusual because it  boasts 80  as in  that  80% is the electrical conversion rate. .  Other articles use the Heat and electricity number. Journalism at its finest.

For stand-alone applications, SOFC chemical to electrical efficiency is 45 to 65%, based on the lower heating value (LHV) of the fuel, which is twice that of an internal combustion (IC) engine’s ability to convert chemical energy to mechanical work. In a combined cycle, there are numerous combined heat and power (CHP) applications using SOFC systems, which have the potential to achieve efficiencies of >85% LHV.

This is speaking in general,  but lets accept that as the efficiency number as 40% instead of the 80 I original used.
On Natural Gas, you are STILL looking at  8-12 Cents per KW generated.  This is STILL a completely viable alternative in a lot of places. There will be cost of ownership, and questions about how long this new tech lasts before needing repair/replacement ( cost of ownership)  - but if you want to produce your own power cheaply- and at a price comparable to what the utility can deliver it at, this tech would allow it, and it won't go away when the lines go down, as long as the Nat Gas keeps flowing - so you are getting MORE for your 8-12 cents than the utility offers. .  If it really is (cheaply converted to)  flex fuel , you keep a tank of LP around and hook it up if and when the Gas stops. The propane option is of course also twice as expensive, but when compared to a conventional Internal combustion engine  you are still getting at LEAST  twice the power for the same amount of fuel, and some usable heat besides - and no backup generator or other equipment to maintain.

Here are  some similar units using current tech -  one by panasonic for around $22K (200-750 Watts)  and another by Clear edge
 at 5Kw and   $56K..  its all about price points here.   5KW generated over 24 hrs ( and you pretty much need to leave these running)  is about 6X more electricity than you need in a day.  There are obviously some economies of scale, with the small Panisonic costing 22K for UNDER a Kilowatt, and the Clearedge running about  $10000 a KW.

So imagine you and 5 of your neighbors  neighbors decided to go  for a 6 house co-op. - you could generate your own power using Natural Gas at rates comparable to the power company, but each of you has to put in $10,000. Say you Live in an expensive place (New England)  and you pay ) 15 cents per KW, so you "save" 5 cents for electricity you generate with this fuelcell.  Since you use about 20 KW hrs a day, you "save" about $356 a year.  Its a 28 Year pay off if you pay 10,000 a person. . so you say "no thanks."  But now I come back and its  a $1000  outlay per person, and a 2.8 year payoff.   Now Obama's idiotic coal regulations start raising rates around the country to New England Levels.  Oh now its viable a LOT more places too.  If this tech pans out,  its a game changer.

[AlanS]

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

[Weisshaupt]

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

Perhaps. The tech looks fairly mature..and probably does what they say it does.. (almost guaranteed to provie that 40% number)  its really just a question of what they price it at.  If they sell it at current prices ( or just below) and try to  pocket that extra margin, then  its a me-too non starter - and they are just another competitor in an already very small market place.  29 year returns on investmnet are just not compelling.  If, on the other hand, they realize the tech has applications everywhere, from Hybrid Electric Cars , to RVs to Home and commercial powerplants, and the manufaturing costs really are such they can price the systems at 90% under thier competition and still make decent  margins,  I think  they will become very sucessful very quickly.  If you can recoup the initial investment in 2-5 years,  I see this opening a lot of new markets for the technology that simply won't exist otherwise.  Guess we will see if they are that smart, and if the Obama administration can tolerate that much power and control  independance. With one of these, you don't have to put up with htier smart meter bs, or thier attempt to regulate the electric companies out of exisitence (while raising cosumer prices) just as they are doing with Obamacare. Obama wants those coal plants closed, because then electricty rates go up and more small businesses fail, leaving even more of the pie to the Cronies.
 

[Libertas]

If progressives remain in power (and heck what signs are there that they won't remain in power a while longer?) then we can be assured of rising energy costs for all sources, so at some point fuel-cells will make economic sense and I think Weisshaupt has identified the mechanism (cooperatives) that will drive it when it does begin to take off.  Sure would be nice to see somebody put some of these units through a real-life test over a significant time period (is a year too much?  would like to see seasonal impacts if any) and get solid readings on performance.

[benb61]

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

Perhaps. The tech looks fairly mature..and probably does what they say it does.. (almost guaranteed to provie that 40% number)  its really just a question of what they price it at.  If they sell it at current prices ( or just below) and try to  pocket that extra margin, then  its a me-too non starter - and they are just another competitor in an already very small market place.  29 year returns on investmnet are just not compelling.  If, on the other hand, they realize the tech has applications everywhere, from Hybrid Electric Cars , to RVs to Home and commercial powerplants, and the manufaturing costs really are such they can price the systems at 90% under thier competition and still make decent  margins,  I think  they will become very sucessful very quickly.  If you can recoup the initial investment in 2-5 years,  I see this opening a lot of new markets for the technology that simply won't exist otherwise.  Guess we will see if they are that smart, and if the Obama administration can tolerate that much power and control  independance. With one of these, you don't have to put up with htier smart meter bs, or thier attempt to regulate the electric companies out of exisitence (while raising cosumer prices) just as they are doing with Obamacare. Obama wants those coal plants closed, because then electricty rates go up and more small businesses fail, leaving even more of the pie to the Cronies.

That also pushes more people on the dole, which we all know they want.