Author Topic: Obesity, diet, seed oils  (Read 9313 times)

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Offline patentlymn

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Obesity, diet, seed oils
« on: August 21, 2024, 03:21:41 PM »

Here are some video links. The first 2 presenters are the best. Since these guys started years ago maybe 50x more videos have jumped on the bandwagon.

He whips through several studies on human populations over time. Obesity and diabetes seem to track seed oils (OM-6) rather than calories sugar, fat, or carbs. US OM-6 went from 2.4 gm/day   in 1865 to 11x that 145 years later.

The fact that many such oils are made in large industrial plants does not matter to me. Some presenters mention this.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ddu7-zTRoBg?feature=share
Dr. Chris Knobbe - 'Are Vegetable Oils the primary driver of Obesity, Diabetes and Chronic Disease?'



https://youtu.be/Q2UnOryQiIY
Nina Teicholz - 'Vegetable Oils: The Unknown Story'

This is where she talks about Crisco at 6 min.
https://youtu.be/Q2UnOryQiIY?t=356

This guy mostly focuses on sugar
https://youtu.be/jpNU72dny2s
Prof. Robert Lustig - 'Sugar, metabolic syndrome, and cancer'






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Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2024, 03:33:50 PM »

I worked for an obesity related company for almost 2 years. I read a lot about that stuff then and noticed stuff since them.

"Obesity is contagious"  Huh? WTF?

A couple days ago I mentioned this to my brother. He volunteers at a hospital mostly wheeling or being with  patients leaving for cars. I mentioned this to him. He said that when there is a very obese patient in the wheel chair the spouse with them is often even fatter.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2024, 11:49:42 AM »
Ever been to Wal Mart or Old Country Buffet?

Good Lord!  You know the Grim Reaper is nearby!

Anyway...

About sugar...it is my kryptonite...I like cookies, I like sour candies, hard candies...fricken Zotz go down like popcorn...chocolate...I try to limit myself yet I cannot divorce entirely from it...

I am not devoid of a middle, but I am not at Beluga stage yet...I can do better re:sweets, just saying it ain't easy...and I've managed through meal portion control more than anything to keep cholesterol manageable without drugs (which I do not want!) and my weight stable...

I could probably cut back the beer intake too, but the ending of warm weather kinda does that for me naturally...and I shift to Chianti and liquors...there's just something about warm weather, grilling and a cold brew...
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2024, 02:33:32 PM »

I never ate much sugar. Then I stopped drinking and swapped the liquor store for the ice cream aisle. Also more carbs from other sources.

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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2024, 07:58:59 PM »
I have thus far lost 90lbs on what would be called “ketovore” diet. It’s a ketogenic diet heavy on meat and its associated fats, fish, dairy, eggs, limited green veggies, and low glycemic fruit. I have completely cut out all added sugars, seed oils, grains, and starchy vegetables. I fry with avacado oil, butter, or tallow, and sautee in olive oil. I drink water exclusively. My doctor has taken me off my Statin, my blood pressure meds, my blood thinner, and my reflux meds. I go in next week to the sleep doc to get assessed and schedule a sleep study to see if I can get rid of the CPAP. I’ve been speed walking a lot, climbing stairs, walking on the treadmill. My resting BP is mid one-teens over low/mid 70s.

On January 8th, I started with a standard low-calorie starvation diet upon which I had lost 60lbs years ago, which all came back. On this diet, I lost 32lbs by early March, and then plateaued, even though I was following the diet exactly. I wanted to know why. So I did a deep-dive on YouTube, and discovered ketosis. Ketosis essentially is switching your body’s primary energy source from glucose to lipids (fats). In ketosis, your body burns fat for energy. Rather than listening to “influencers” I gravitated toward doctors, metabolic scientists, endocrinologists, cardiologists, etc. I haven’t kept track, but I would estimate that between listening to lectures by doctors and audio-books by doctors, I’ve consumed upwards of 300 hours on the subject. I became obsessed with knowing the metabolic functions of the body in relation to the macronutrients.

Some takeaways… Obesity is not a disease, it’s a symptom of a disease - the disease being metabolic dysfunction. It’s a hormonal response to abusive consumption of highly processed foods, fructose, seed oils, and the overconsumption of carbohydrates. Insulin is the key. Insulin resistance and its twin, hyperinsulinemia are at the core of all metabolic dysfunction, and the symptoms of what they call “metabolic syndrome” are not limited to obesity. Other symptoms are high blood pressure, atherosclerosis (heart disease) Type-2 Diabetes, Stroke, Some auto-immune diseases, chronic systemic inflammation, sexual dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction, and even dementia/Alzheimer’s.

Insulin drives energy into the cells - drives glucose into the fat cells to store energy there in a process called lipogenesis. The human bloodstream can only accommodate about a teaspoon of Glucose. It needs to be burned, or stored. After the body’s energy requirements are met, Insulin knocks on the fat-cell door, and says, “here is energy for you to store. Turn it into fat for later.” The natural, normal process would see insulin spike after carb intake, do its job sending glucose into the energy needs of the body, and then store the excess into the fat cells for later use. Then insulin lowers… But in the standard American diet, before that insulin can go back down to its nominal level, another carb snack is consumed, sending the insulin back up to a level even higher than before. Then another carb meal, and again throughout the day. The average person’s insulin levels never see their baseline. They go to bed in a state of elevated insulin.

Here’s the biggest problem. When you go to the doctor at 25, 35, 45, they’ll measure your Glucose and give you a clean bill of health. They see your glucose levels as normal. But that is because your insulin is doing its job, keeping your bloodstream from being overrun with sugar. BUT, what that Glucose measurement does not tell the doctor is that the amount of insulin that it requires for you to keep the sugars in check is much much larger than it was when you were young. That is because of insulin resistance. Over time, when the fat cells get filled to the bursting point, they begin to down-regulate - basically shut off the insulin receptors. They refuse the signal from the insulin telling to cell to store fat, so the insulin requirements keep going up and up. By the time the doctor detects elevated glucose in the blood, you’ve been in a state of insulin resistance for 10, 20, 30 years. THAT’S when the doctor decides to intervene, but by then, you’re already suffering from metabolic syndrome.

The good news is it can ALL be undone. That’s not to say the permanent damage hasn’t been done, but by eliminating carbs/sugars/seed oils/starches, you can repair your insulin resistance, and eliminate the systemic inflammation that leads to all the chronic diseases we associate with “aging”. Type-2 Diabetes can be reversed. There is tons of information out there.

I would recommend two sources off the top of my head… Dr. Benjamin Bikman, author of “Why We Get Sick.” He’s a cellular biologist who has basically dedicated his career to metabolic science. He has a YouTube series called “Metabolic Classroom” that I have found very worthwhile. Also, Dr. Robert Lustig, author of “Metabolical” has many worthwhile lectures on YouTube. As a clinician, he was a pediatric endocrinologist who launched research into obesity because of a type of obesity children were suffering after cancer treatment. His path led him down a hormonal rabbit hole that led him to discover Leptin resistance as a result of insulin resistance. He is hyper anti-fructose.

A few more takeaways… avoid the center of the grocery store. Shop around the edges… produce, meat, dairy. If it comes in a box or bag with a bar code, be suspicious… “high fructose cord syrup, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, carrageenan, mono- and diglycerides, carboxymethylcellulose, polysorbate” - just a tiny fraction of the bad things that we should never ever consume.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 08:04:32 PM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2024, 09:06:02 PM »

Nice post above. I have watched Lustig before. It is almost impossible to starve yourself for years. it is hard to keep on your very healthy diet for long for many people . It is not hard to not eat until noon or 2 or 4. The Two links to the seed oil people I posted Knobbe and the woman Nina are good for the papers they cite.  The tribe that lived on mostly sweet potatoes shocked me.

I quit drinking but ended up eating more carbs so that is next.I did not eat many carbs when I  drank other than the booze late at night.  It is hard to avoid seed oils without just giving up processed foods period.I think that whether you eat low carb or high carb the seed oils are bad for you.

I will post some other obesity stuff as I remember it.  Some is strange stuff.

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2024, 10:56:58 PM »
I have thus far lost 90lbs on what would be called “ketovore” diet. It’s a ketogenic diet heavy on meat and its associated fats, fish, dairy, eggs, limited green veggies, and low glycemic fruit. I have completely cut out all added sugars, seed oils, grains, and starchy vegetables. I fry with avacado oil, butter, or tallow, and sautee in olive oil. I drink water exclusively. My doctor has taken me off my Statin, my blood pressure meds, my blood thinner, and my reflux meds. I go in next week to the sleep doc to get assessed and schedule a sleep study to see if I can get rid of the CPAP. I’ve been speed walking a lot, climbing stairs, walking on the treadmill. My resting BP is mid one-teens over low/mid 70s.
 ...
A few more takeaways… avoid the center of the grocery store. Shop around the edges… produce, meat, dairy. If it comes in a box or bag with a bar code, be suspicious… “high fructose cord syrup, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, carrageenan, mono- and diglycerides, carboxymethylcellulose, polysorbate” - just a tiny fraction of the bad things that we should never ever consume.

Another good book from years past is 2010 Why we get fat—and what to do about it
Gary Taubes. . A little dated but good and cheap used.

A short less accurate  version of modern theory is that blood glucose is low either because you ate few carbs OR you ate lots but your insulin ramped up to take it down. If you do not eat breakfast your insulin never ramps up until you eat.

Decades ago A GF went on a "grapefruit and egg" diet aka the Mayo diet (not accurate).You can still find it on line.  It was very low carb high protein low fat diet. It put you into ketotsis. I went on it with her and had my one and only kidney stone. A warning sign for men is like having your scrotum squeezed to make you feel nauseous.

I tried the Atkins diet years ago and got very constipated.  Something to watch out for so have bulk or maybe miralax&metamucil if needed. Maybe something to watch out for on any low fiber diet. I still eat Aldi pitted prunes every day just in case.

"Eating makes you hungry"  If you eat breakfast then your insulin spikes (especially if eating carbs) then blood sugar crashes hours later and you feel hungry. If you skip breakfast you may get hunger pangs but not as bad as if you had eaten breakfast. Plus the hunger pangs go away.








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Offline Syzygy

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2024, 11:57:48 PM »

...
He whips through several studies on human populations over time. Obesity and diabetes seem to track seed oils (OM-6) rather than calories sugar, fat, or carbs. US OM-6 went from 2.4 gm/day   in 1865 to 11x that 145 years later.

...


Let me give you a bit of advice derived from my own personal experience:  it's best not to glom onto the latest "health food " fad that comes down the pike. 
When in high school ('67-'71),  like most kids my age I had acne--not bad but even one pimple was enough to make the most self-conscience teenager even more self-conscience. 
At that time,  it was the eating of sweets that was thought to cause acne. 
SO,
after learning that carbs broke down into simple sugars when mixed with the saliva in your mouth,  not only did I cut out the sweets,  but I also cut out the carbs.
Lo and behold,  even though I wasn't the least bit overweight,  I lost weight considerably.  Even my girlfriend at the time remarked at how loosely my clothes were on me. 

Fast forward a few years and here comes the Dr. Atkins diet,  which stipulated that you eat protein foods only and forsake all sweets and carbs.  At that particular time,  the bad food "boogeyman," was eggs,  not ''seed oils"  (the latter is ridiculous on its face).

Dr. Atkins had a chapter in his book entitled,  In Defense of the Egg.  No defense needed for me--I ate a 3 egg omelet this very morning. 

As wise King Solomon said,  "there is nothing new under the sun,"  so when all the rave was about the "Keto" diet,  I saw it was nothing more than Atkins' diet redux.  Same with the "eat like a carnivore" diet.

You're perfectly free to glom onto the latest "food craze" or "food boogeymen,"   but having witnessed so many during my short stay on this earth,  only to see them shot down or forgotten about,   I would suggest you step back,  take a deep breath,  and just bide your time until all is either disputed or forgotten about,  until the next "food craze" or "boogeyman food" comes along and experiences the same fate.  Just sayin'.

And just to prove the point,  what happened to the high fructose corn syrup "food boogeyman," pray tell?  Knowing you,  I'm sure you glomed onto that one as well.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2024, 06:41:29 AM »
The minimum daily requirement for carbohydrates is literally zero. Veggies and fruit provide carbs - and dairy to a certain extent - but even those carbohydrates are not necessary. The nutrients, fiber, and antioxidants in the veggies and fruit are good, but the carbs in them are not necessary. Any glucose your body might need by avoiding simple carbohydrates will be manufactured in the liver via gluconeogenesis. You don’t need to consume any carbs for carbs sake. And as far as switching your body from sugar-burning to fat-burning, There is clinical evidence from Dr.. Benjamin Bikman that given the choice, the brain actually prefers to fuel on ketones rather than glucose by a ratio of 6-1. Preliminary studies show an improvement in cognitive functions in people with dementia when they are put into ketosis.

I’ve been avoiding all grain, sugar, seed oils, and starches since early March, and have suffered no ill effect, and 100% upside. I’ve learned that it’s not because I’ve lost 90 lbs (although that DOES have some exclusive health benefits), but rather because I’ve fixed my metabolism, fixed my insulin resistance, fixed my leptin resistance, and thereby reduced or eliminated my systemic inflammation. You may recall I had a TIA stroke about 2.5 years ago. My body is so “fixed” that my doctor has taken me off all meds.

The really miraculous thing to me is that I eat to complete satiety every single day. I am NEVER hungry, unless my body perceives a need for nutrition. When you are in a sugar-burning cycle, your leptin (satiety hormone) is masked by hyperinsulinemia, and your dopamine receptors in your brain get addicted to the glucose. Rather than your body getting its satiety signal from your leptin and your hunger signal from your ghrelin (hunger hormone) your dopamine receptors are constantly signaling that you need another hit of glucose. And your dopamine receptors eventually down-regulate, just as if you were on drugs or alcohol - you need more sugar to satisfy the craving. Thus your body NEVER takes its signals for when to eat and when to stop eating from your leptin and ghrelin, and ALWAYS tells you that you need glucose as soon as the prior hit of glucose has been metabolized.

Avoiding all simple carbs takes the dopamine hit out of the picture, and your leptin and ghrelin are finally allowed to work as they’re supposed to. I NEVER say “I’m starving”, and I used to say it all the time. This realization and understanding has been a miracle for me.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2024, 09:00:56 AM »
I find your data fascinating IDP.  I suspect I am probably a glucose junky, I've been "getting by" with moderating intake and resisting the sweets as much as I can...but I am probably losing on other metrics.

What does a typical daily food menu/schedule look like for you?  Does portion size matter?  Curious what the routine looks like.

ETA - Also, is there any cultural angle to what you are doing?  I suspect most of the world has glucose issues to one extent or another...not sure there is one culture that is healthy in its meals that stands out.

Also...

Talking all glucose right?  Not just simple sugar, there is also sucrose, lactose...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 09:24:16 AM by Libertas »
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2024, 10:35:17 AM »
I find your data fascinating IDP.  I suspect I am probably a glucose junky, I've been "getting by" with moderating intake and resisting the sweets as much as I can...but I am probably losing on other metrics.

What does a typical daily food menu/schedule look like for you?  Does portion size matter?  Curious what the routine looks like.

ETA - Also, is there any cultural angle to what you are doing?  I suspect most of the world has glucose issues to one extent or another...not sure there is one culture that is healthy in its meals that stands out.

Also...

Talking all glucose right?  Not just simple sugar, there is also sucrose, lactose...

A typical day would be a New York strip for breakfast, full fat cottage cheese with fresh blueberries, Pistachios, and a few pieces of celery for lunch, And grilled salmon with a side of asparagus for supper. The next day might be three eggs for breakfast along with a couple pieces of bacon, A couple hamburger patties and kimchi for lunch, and a couple pieces of cauliflower crust pizza with garlic Pesto sauce instead of tomato sauce for supper. When It comes to meat and fat As well as vegetables, portion control is largely irrelevant. In fact, you want to make sure you are getting enough meat and fat, both saturated and mono unsaturated. You want to avoid the poly unsaturated – the seed/vegetable oils. I will also pick a day or two a week to narrow my eating window in a day, otherwise known as intermittent fasting or time restricted eating. A couple days a week I will skip breakfast have my first meal of the day at 1 o’clock, then eat again at 6 o’clock, and then not eat again until breakfast the next day. This gives your body extra time to be without insulin  in the blood, which helps overcome insulin resistance. When it comes to nuts, fruit, dairy, etc. portion control does matter because those foods contain some level of carbohydrates. You want to completely avoid fruit juice because it is a concentrated fructose bomb. Your metabolism does not differentiate between the fructose in juice and fructose in Coca-Cola. It is metabolized exactly the same, which is bad. Fruit should always be eaten whole with its associated fiber and antioxidants. And choose low glycemic fruit like berries, and avoid the high fructose bombs like tropical fruits.

As far as sugar types, Sucrose (table sugar) is one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose. Metabolically, those two molecules are separated before they are metabolized. Both are metabolized differently; glucose through the normal pathways that provide energy to the cells, and fructose entirely in the liver, which is really horsesh*t for your body. Fructose is mitochondrial poison. It causes fatty liver, mitochondrial dysfunction, and carbohydrate addiction. Too much glucose is bad for all of the above mentioned reasons in my first post of the thread. The key is controlling insulin. Our bodies are simply not designed to eat carbohydrates 6 to 10 times per day, which is basically the standard American diet.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2024, 11:08:24 AM »
Also, the demonization of saturated fat and the canonization of “whole grains“ while simultaneously giving sugar a pass, is perhaps the largest medical fraud scandal in the history of western civilization. Saturated fat does NOT cause heart disease, UNLESS We are suffering from metabolic syndrome and its associated systemic inflammation. The cholesterol you eat is not the cholesterol that winds up in your blood. That is 100% CREATED By the liver, one of the primary drivers of lipids in the blood is sugar. Inflammation oxidizes, LDL particles, damaging them, making them smaller and more dense. These small, damaged LDL Particles are able to penetrate the endothelium (inner lining of the arteries) causing atherosclerosis. In the absence of systemic, inflammation, the LDL particles remain “fluffy” and buoyant, And these LDL particles will not penetrate the endothelial cells. So do not fear saturated fat in the long term. Get your metabolic house in order, and saturated fat becomes an energy source and not a threat to your health.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2024, 11:12:15 AM »
I find your data fascinating IDP.  I suspect I am probably a glucose junky, I've been "getting by" with moderating intake and resisting the sweets as much as I can...but I am probably losing on other metrics.

What does a typical daily food menu/schedule look like for you?  Does portion size matter?  Curious what the routine looks like.

ETA - Also, is there any cultural angle to what you are doing?  I suspect most of the world has glucose issues to one extent or another...not sure there is one culture that is healthy in its meals that stands out.

Also...

Talking all glucose right?  Not just simple sugar, there is also sucrose, lactose...

A typical day would be a New York strip for breakfast, full fat cottage cheese with fresh blueberries, Pistachios, and a few pieces of celery for lunch, And grilled salmon with a side of asparagus for supper. The next day might be three eggs for breakfast along with a couple pieces of bacon, A couple hamburger patties and kimchi for lunch, and a couple pieces of cauliflower crust pizza with garlic Pesto sauce instead of tomato sauce for supper. When It comes to meat and fat As well as vegetables, portion control is largely irrelevant. In fact, you want to make sure you are getting enough meat and fat, both saturated and mono unsaturated. You want to avoid the poly unsaturated – the seed/vegetable oils. I will also pick a day or two a week to narrow my eating window in a day, otherwise known as intermittent fasting or time restricted eating. A couple days a week I will skip breakfast have my first meal of the day at 1 o’clock, then eat again at 6 o’clock, and then not eat again until breakfast the next day. This gives your body extra time to be without insulin  in the blood, which helps overcome insulin resistance. When it comes to nuts, fruit, dairy, etc. portion control does matter because those foods contain some level of carbohydrates. You want to completely avoid fruit juice because it is a concentrated fructose bomb. Your metabolism does not differentiate between the fructose in juice and fructose in Coca-Cola. It is metabolized exactly the same, which is bad. Fruit should always be eaten whole with its associated fiber and antioxidants. And choose low glycemic fruit like berries, and avoid the high fructose bombs like tropical fruits.

As far as sugar types, Sucrose (table sugar) is one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose. Metabolically, those two molecules are separated before they are metabolized. Both are metabolized differently; glucose through the normal pathways that provide energy to the cells, and fructose entirely in the liver, which is really horsesh*t for your body. Fructose is mitochondrial poison. It causes fatty liver, mitochondrial dysfunction, and carbohydrate addiction. Too much glucose is bad for all of the above mentioned reasons in my first post of the thread. The key is controlling insulin. Our bodies are simply not designed to eat carbohydrates 6 to 10 times per day, which is basically the standard American diet.

Awesome, thanks.  That gives me a picture I can digest.  I will have to talk to my brother in law, always been a big boy but some of this sounds like things he is doing, I will have to follow up with him.  He's dropped like 60 pounds. 

I am not interested in weight loss per se, not opposed to trimming my middle, I think the import takeaway is a health metabolism first and foremost.

I will have to look into this more and read up on your Doc's writings you mentioned.

 ::thumbsup::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2024, 11:14:31 AM »
Also, the demonization of saturated fat and the canonization of “whole grains“ while simultaneously giving sugar a pass, is perhaps the largest medical fraud scandal in the history of western civilization. Saturated fat does NOT cause heart disease, UNLESS We are suffering from metabolic syndrome and its associated systemic inflammation. The cholesterol you eat is not the cholesterol that winds up in your blood. That is 100% CREATED By the liver, one of the primary drivers of lipids in the blood is sugar. Inflammation oxidizes, LDL particles, damaging them, making them smaller and more dense. These small, damaged LDL Particles are able to penetrate the endothelium (inner lining of the arteries) causing atherosclerosis. In the absence of systemic, inflammation, the LDL particles remain “fluffy” and buoyant, And these LDL particles will not penetrate the endothelial cells. So do not fear saturated fat in the long term. Get your metabolic house in order, and saturated fat becomes an energy source and not a threat to your health.

Good point.  I never bought into to saturated fat hate nor glommed onto the joy of whole grains...and exposure to the latter likely coming through other avenues in processed foods.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2024, 11:31:41 AM »
Yup. Metabolism is key. Fix that, and you fix all of the symptoms that we currently assign their own special “Disease“. Atherosclerosis, Stroke risk, hypertension, Obesity, type 2 diabetes, sexual dysfunction, sleep apnea, and even dementia. All of these can be fixed, simply by fixing the metabolism, and controlling insulin is the primary lever you can pull to make that happen. Also, some other obvious things like exercise, avoiding smoking, reducing stress… there are more factors in play besides hyperinsulinemia, but that is the easiest and most effective lever to pull.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2024, 12:09:14 PM »


I had read and kinda forgotten much of the lipid stuff you, IDP, mentioned. The fructose metabolism is still in my mind.

The calorie content of food is measures by burning it in a closed vessel surrounded by water and taking the temperature increase.  HFCS is mostly the same as corn syrup or table sugar when measured this way but the human body does not work like that. HFCS mostly just has more fructose and as you said it is processed in the liver.

IMO the seed oil harm is through a  different mechanism than sugar or carbs. I read and forgot some theories. maybe mitochondria related.

Seed oils did not come into significant use before around 1900 so maybe the human body did not evolve to process them. Olive oil was consumed but not sure about the quantities.

One example of the seed oil use is cottonseed oil. I recall it was not used much. The industrial need for lubricants exceed the supply from whales. So it was extracted. Then used in soaps. After people figured out how to make it shelf stable they figured out they could sell it as food. Proctor and Gamble sold it in Crisco as a "modern" lard replacement. Later another seed oil replaced it.

Just because cotton seed oil was not much consumed by humans until 1900 does not mean it is bad. Just because you can sell it to humans as food does not mean it is good to eat.











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Offline Syzygy

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2024, 12:42:27 PM »
The minimum daily requirement for carbohydrates is literally zero. Veggies and fruit provide carbs - and dairy to a certain extent - but even those carbohydrates are not necessary. ...

Try telling that to the long (and healthy) lived Adventists in Loma Linda,  CA, whose diet is made up of mostly carbs.  Or any Adventists anywhere who follow the Adventist health message religiously (pun intended).

Adventists contend that God was the original plant-based diet advocate — He wanted people to eat things that dropped out of trees and sprouted from the Earth.


https://www.businessinsider.com/loma-linda-blue-zone-longevity-secrets-of-seventh-day-adventists-2023-11?op=1

If you eat only proteins and fats to the exclusion of carbs and sweets,  you will lose weight--something I discovered quite by accident while still a teenager and well before Atkins or Keto.
And this was confirmed by scientific studies done at the height of Adkins' popularity.

BUT,
what those studies also revealed was that the practitioners of the diet were developing all the symptoms associated with such a diet (arterial plaque,  higher BP,  et al.).   
The conclusion was that while it may be OK temporarily for weight loss,  it is certainly no substitute for a healthy,  well balanced diet. 

Continue to follow at your own risk. 

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2024, 02:15:16 PM »


I had read and kinda forgotten much of the lipid stuff you, IDP, mentioned. The fructose metabolism is still in my mind.

The calorie content of food is measures by burning it in a closed vessel surrounded by water and taking the temperature increase.  HFCS is mostly the same as corn syrup or table sugar when measured this way but the human body does not work like that. HFCS mostly just has more fructose and as you said it is processed in the liver.

IMO the seed oil harm is through a  different mechanism than sugar or carbs. I read and forgot some theories. maybe mitochondria related.

Seed oils did not come into significant use before around 1900 so maybe the human body did not evolve to process them. Olive oil was consumed but not sure about the quantities.

One example of the seed oil use is cottonseed oil. I recall it was not used much. The industrial need for lubricants exceed the supply from whales. So it was extracted. Then used in soaps. After people figured out how to make it shelf stable they figured out they could sell it as food. Proctor and Gamble sold it in Crisco as a "modern" lard replacement. Later another seed oil replaced it.

Just because cotton seed oil was not much consumed by humans until 1900 does not mean it is bad. Just because you can sell it to humans as food does not mean it is good to eat.

The danger in seed oils is that it creates oxidative stress, resulting in systemic inflammation, which again, is a contributor to insulin resistance. The lineolic acid (Omega 6) is WAY out of whack with the proper ratio in relation to Omega 3s. We should have a predominance of Omega 3, and a diet heavy in seed oils turns that ratio upside down and inside out. Plus, it’s a HIGHLY processed food. Seeds contain a tiny amount of oil. The extraction process requires heavy chemicals and processing. Important to note that olive oil is not a seed oil, it is a mono-unsaturated fruit oil. It is among the most healthy of fats, HOWEVER, since it has a relative low smoke point (320°) it will begin to turn into a trans fat if heated beyond that point. It’s best for dressings, dips, and lower temp quick sauteeing. Avocado oil is the workhorse for me. Also a mono-unsaturated fruit oil, its smoke point is 500°. It is a great oil for all frying, and its flavor is neutral, unlike olive oil.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 02:19:13 PM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline patentlymn

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2024, 02:32:40 PM »
  Many of my thoughts on obesity could be filed under "the human body is more complex than people know."

Bariatric bypass surgery removes part of the small intestine. If the part near the duodenum is removed it often reversed type 2 diabetes much faster than could be explained by weight loss.

IMO walking is much better for you than can be explained by any calorie chart showing how many calories are burned.






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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Obesity, diet, seed oils
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2024, 02:34:47 PM »
One thing I found surprising that seems to be pretty much universally agreed upon among the people who are considered contemporary experts is that a great deal of the science involving metabolism, metabolic endocrinology, and biochemistry in regards to the bodies processing of the macro nutrients Has changed dramatically in the last 5 to 10 years. Dr. knowledge gets “Stuck“ in whatever time they went through medical school, UNLESS they proactively avail themselves of the latest science via continuing education. When it comes to diet and nutrition; lipid health; metabolism, etc., most physicians do not go in that direction with continuing education. They stay with the medical dogma that they are familiar with. Many people who have done their own research as I have are in the position of having to educate their physician. Fortunately, my doctor is a young fella, and while his initial responses to my poor health was all of the standard recommendations, once I demonstrated to him that I had new knowledge and was committed to change, he acknowledged that he was aware of everything I was telling him about what I had discovered, and he is fully on board and supportive. But lots of doctors will freak out when you tell them, for instance,  that you are not focused on your LDL cholesterol number, but rather your triglyceride/HDL ratio as a bio marker for lipid health. My doctor did not, For which I am very thankful.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2024, 11:02:29 PM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson