Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 235573 times)

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2900 on: April 16, 2025, 03:51:14 PM »
In short, take out Russia first then China

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/strategy-avoiding-two-front-war-192137
A Strategy for Avoiding Two-Front War
August 21, 2021
By: A. Wess Mitchell

...
The paper says

Rather than attempting to woo or court Russia into a conciliatory stance, we should present it with a combination of insuperable obstacles to westward expansion (including, if necessary, by inflicting a far more serious defeat than it has heretofore experienced in Ukraine)  ....

The equivalent of Port Arthur or Afghanistan today is Ukraine. The United States should wish to see Russia suffer a military rebuff of sufficient magnitude to prompt its leaders to reassess their assumptions about the permissiveness of the post-Soviet space as a preferred zone of strategic expansion. America can help bring about this outcome much as it did in Afghanistan: by providing locals the means to better resist Russia at higher volumes than it has done to date and encouraging European allies to do the same. And we should significantly raise the costs for cyber and other attacks on the United States, including via reciprocal attacks on Russian critical infrastructure and by sanctioning Putin’s inner circle and the secondary market for Russian bonds. This pain, however, must have a goal beyond simply punishment; namely, to inflict a defeat for strategic effect, with the calculated aim of convincing Russia that its chosen path of westward expansion is closed. ...

An effective pivot requires a fulcrum, and Ukraine is that fulcrum.  ...

When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2901 on: April 16, 2025, 04:06:07 PM »
She grew up on Ukraine. She said the ultra-nationalsim was strong in Lvov where she grew up then spread east.
https://youtu.be/MJ8nyy4LHGU
Historian EXPOSES How Ethno-Nationalism Betrayed Ukraine | Marta Havryshko Interview | Part One

https://x.com/HavryshkoMarta/status/1909196874587787601
So, let’s take a look at some of the developments within the Ukrainian army that have taken place during Zelenskyy’s presidency:

?A Nachtigal Unit was formed, named after the German-backed Nachtigal Battalion, which took part in the attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941.
?A Luftwaffe Unit emerged, using the Nazi Eagle as its insignia.
?The Russian Volunteer Corps (RDK) was created. Its leader, Denis “White Rex” Kapustin (Nikitin), is a known neo-Nazi and white supremacist, banned across the Schengen Zone for extremist activities. Some of his fighters wear Nazi symbols and ROA patches.
?A German Volunteer Corps appeared, which openly promotes Nazism and racism on its social media.
?An informal unit called Format 18 (#18 is a code for 'Adolf Hitler') includes members from the so-called Tesak group — a neo-Nazi organization known for racially motivated murders in Russia.
?Members of far-right military units were allowed to openly network with neo-Nazi groups from around the world to recruit them into the war. As part of this effort, the Nation Europa conference took place in Lviv in August 2023, attended, among others, by the German fascist group Der Dritte Weg.
?The 3rd Assault Brigade organized an exhibition (Sept. 2023) at the Museum of Kyiv, displaying several photos of the Waffen-SS Division Galicia and comparing themselves to its soldiers.
?Other military units openly celebrate the Waffen-SS Division Galicia, including Karpatska Sich, Vovky da Vinci, and Svoboda.
?Symbols such as the Wolfsangel, Totenkopf, Dirlewanger, Nazi Eagle, and Black Sun have become popular patches in the army. No one has apologized for them. No one questions them.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2902 on: April 16, 2025, 04:17:22 PM »
In short, take out Russia first then China

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/strategy-avoiding-two-front-war-192137
A Strategy for Avoiding Two-Front War
August 21, 2021
By: A. Wess Mitchell

...
The paper says

Rather than attempting to woo or court Russia into a conciliatory stance, we should present it with a combination of insuperable obstacles to westward expansion (including, if necessary, by inflicting a far more serious defeat than it has heretofore experienced in Ukraine)  ....

The equivalent of Port Arthur or Afghanistan today is Ukraine. The United States should wish to see Russia suffer a military rebuff of sufficient magnitude to prompt its leaders to reassess their assumptions about the permissiveness of the post-Soviet space as a preferred zone of strategic expansion. America can help bring about this outcome much as it did in Afghanistan: by providing locals the means to better resist Russia at higher volumes than it has done to date and encouraging European allies to do the same. And we should significantly raise the costs for cyber and other attacks on the United States, including via reciprocal attacks on Russian critical infrastructure and by sanctioning Putin’s inner circle and the secondary market for Russian bonds. This pain, however, must have a goal beyond simply punishment; namely, to inflict a defeat for strategic effect, with the calculated aim of convincing Russia that its chosen path of westward expansion is closed. ...

An effective pivot requires a fulcrum, and Ukraine is that fulcrum.  ...

Why do we care what a Harvad asshat, Stoltenberg toady CFR POS has to say about anything and why is it helpful to bring up when we want peace not more of this BS?

 ::cussing:: Mitchell!
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2903 on: April 16, 2025, 04:18:35 PM »
She grew up on Ukraine. She said the ultra-nationalsim was strong in Lvov where she grew up then spread east.
https://youtu.be/MJ8nyy4LHGU
Historian EXPOSES How Ethno-Nationalism Betrayed Ukraine | Marta Havryshko Interview | Part One

https://x.com/HavryshkoMarta/status/1909196874587787601
So, let’s take a look at some of the developments within the Ukrainian army that have taken place during Zelenskyy’s presidency:

?A Nachtigal Unit was formed, named after the German-backed Nachtigal Battalion, which took part in the attack on the Soviet Union in June 1941.
?A Luftwaffe Unit emerged, using the Nazi Eagle as its insignia.
?The Russian Volunteer Corps (RDK) was created. Its leader, Denis “White Rex” Kapustin (Nikitin), is a known neo-Nazi and white supremacist, banned across the Schengen Zone for extremist activities. Some of his fighters wear Nazi symbols and ROA patches.
?A German Volunteer Corps appeared, which openly promotes Nazism and racism on its social media.
?An informal unit called Format 18 (#18 is a code for 'Adolf Hitler') includes members from the so-called Tesak group — a neo-Nazi organization known for racially motivated murders in Russia.
?Members of far-right military units were allowed to openly network with neo-Nazi groups from around the world to recruit them into the war. As part of this effort, the Nation Europa conference took place in Lviv in August 2023, attended, among others, by the German fascist group Der Dritte Weg.
?The 3rd Assault Brigade organized an exhibition (Sept. 2023) at the Museum of Kyiv, displaying several photos of the Waffen-SS Division Galicia and comparing themselves to its soldiers.
?Other military units openly celebrate the Waffen-SS Division Galicia, including Karpatska Sich, Vovky da Vinci, and Svoboda.
?Symbols such as the Wolfsangel, Totenkopf, Dirlewanger, Nazi Eagle, and Black Sun have become popular patches in the army. No one has apologized for them. No one questions them.

Again, WTF cares?  Rus think they are top caste of Slavs?  Also not helpful.  I guess you want the war to continue too...
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2904 on: April 16, 2025, 04:28:01 PM »
...

Why do we care what a Harvad asshat, Stoltenberg toady CFR POS has to say about anything and why is it helpful to bring up when we want peace not more of this BS?

 ::cussing:: Mitchell!

Most of what has happened was proposed in white papers before the SMO. Many paid for by US DOD or similar.
George Soros proposed using Eastern EU manpower plus western tech to avoid NATO body bags.
Some Rand corp paper proposed over extending Russia using a Ukraine conflict.
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2905 on: April 16, 2025, 05:01:25 PM »

...

Again, WTF cares?  Rus think they are top caste of Slavs?  Also not helpful.  I guess you want the war to continue too...

I listen to people who grew up in Ukraine in recent history. My impression is that much of this ultra-nationalism is recent, post USSR.  This does not seem to be some ancient hatred although there are such hatreds e.g. against the Jews.   Ukrainian as an identity did not really exist outside some academic circles before maybe 1910 or 1920. Even now many people in Ukraine consider themselves as a different identity.

I read lots of social media and some govt posts early on in this conflict. I never got the impression that Russians considered themselves superior to people now called Ukrainians. I listened to the words from different factions. IMO there is a city vs rural split. Cities win out.  Also there is an advantage to using a language of an empire.

Faction 1
We are not the same as faction 2. We are Europeans and they are Mongols. We are genetically different and superior. We want to kill faction 2 or drive them off our sacred land. We do not care that we have both been here for hundreds of years.

Faction 2
We and faction 1 are all eastern slavs. We are often related by marriage. What got into faction 1 recently? How about we try to get along?

 So she lists the organizations created recently. So I shared this.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2906 on: April 17, 2025, 08:08:06 AM »
...

Why do we care what a Harvad asshat, Stoltenberg toady CFR POS has to say about anything and why is it helpful to bring up when we want peace not more of this BS?

 ::cussing:: Mitchell!

Most of what has happened was proposed in white papers before the SMO. Many paid for by US DOD or similar.
George Soros proposed using Eastern EU manpower plus western tech to avoid NATO body bags.
Some Rand corp paper proposed over extending Russia using a Ukraine conflict.

So what?  How does this end the war?
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2907 on: April 17, 2025, 08:09:04 AM »

...

Again, WTF cares?  Rus think they are top caste of Slavs?  Also not helpful.  I guess you want the war to continue too...

I listen to people who grew up in Ukraine in recent history. My impression is that much of this ultra-nationalism is recent, post USSR.  This does not seem to be some ancient hatred although there are such hatreds e.g. against the Jews.   Ukrainian as an identity did not really exist outside some academic circles before maybe 1910 or 1920. Even now many people in Ukraine consider themselves as a different identity.

I read lots of social media and some govt posts early on in this conflict. I never got the impression that Russians considered themselves superior to people now called Ukrainians. I listened to the words from different factions. IMO there is a city vs rural split. Cities win out.  Also there is an advantage to using a language of an empire.

Faction 1
We are not the same as faction 2. We are Europeans and they are Mongols. We are genetically different and superior. We want to kill faction 2 or drive them off our sacred land. We do not care that we have both been here for hundreds of years.

Faction 2
We and faction 1 are all eastern slavs. We are often related by marriage. What got into faction 1 recently? How about we try to get along?

 So she lists the organizations created recently. So I shared this.

Again, how does this help end the war?
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2908 on: April 17, 2025, 08:10:42 AM »
I would argue rehashing the past will keep the war going...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-could-lose-kiev-russia-says-former-french-general

Lots of crap could keep this stupidity going.

And replacing Z with another politician sure seems like it will achieve zip...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraines-parliament-votes-prolong-martial-law-despite-trump-criticisms

...they are going to have to eat what we feed them, or walk away...or the quagmire continues...
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2909 on: April 17, 2025, 10:18:06 AM »

...

Again, WTF cares?  Rus think they are top caste of Slavs?  Also not helpful.  I guess you want the war to continue too...

I listen to people who grew up in Ukraine in recent history. My impression is that much of this ultra-nationalism is recent, post USSR.  This does not seem to be some ancient hatred although there are such hatreds e.g. against the Jews.   Ukrainian as an identity did not really exist outside some academic circles before maybe 1910 or 1920. Even now many people in Ukraine consider themselves as a different identity.

I read lots of social media and some govt posts early on in this conflict. I never got the impression that Russians considered themselves superior to people now called Ukrainians. I listened to the words from different factions. IMO there is a city vs rural split. Cities win out.  Also there is an advantage to using a language of an empire.

Faction 1
We are not the same as faction 2. We are Europeans and they are Mongols. We are genetically different and superior. We want to kill faction 2 or drive them off our sacred land. We do not care that we have both been here for hundreds of years.

Faction 2
We and faction 1 are all eastern slavs. We are often related by marriage. What got into faction 1 recently? How about we try to get along?

 So she lists the organizations created recently. So I shared this.

Again, how does this help end the war?

I never said this would end the war. Sometimes the reasons for the war are hidden in plain sight and are different from the official narratives. There have been proposals to carve up Russia for a long time. Recently maybe a month ago the EU FM proposed splitting up RU into 5 parts.  RU does not have to be paranoid to listen.

Also there is nothing new under the sun.
Grok says:
According to a source citing the Oxford English Dictionary, Mill wrote in 1836: “the real cause” for increasing British military budgets was that “Ministers are smitten with the epidemic disease of Russo-phobia.” This statement suggests Mill viewed the fear of Russia as an exaggerated or irrational pretext for boosting military spending, reflecting a critical stance on how political leaders manipulated public sentiment.



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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2910 on: April 17, 2025, 11:01:57 AM »
I would argue rehashing the past will keep the war going...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-could-lose-kiev-russia-says-former-french-general

Lots of crap could keep this stupidity going.

And replacing Z with another politician sure seems like it will achieve zip...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraines-parliament-votes-prolong-martial-law-despite-trump-criticisms

...they are going to have to eat what we feed them, or walk away...or the quagmire continues...

I think that certain narratives are used to keep the war going.Counter arguments can be used to reduce the reasons for war.

One narrative is that Putin wants to re-create the USSR or the Russian empire. Another is that he will take over all of EU if he is not stopped now. It is 1938 all over again! Remember Neville Chamberlain! These are used to continue the war.

IMO US wanted to start a civil war in Ukr knowing Russia would eventually come in on one side. The US likes wars and regime change. The US mostly controls the MSM. The US 'knew' sanctions alone would collapse Russia cause regime change and allow Russia to be carved up. Using a war in Ukraine to weaken Russia was proposed in at lest one position paper from RAND.

Counter arguments seem to be almost banned especially in the EU and in the US MSM.

I understand the reasons why the Romans and Ottomans went to war. Also Germany and Japan in the 1930s. The more I learned about this Ukr war the more I think a small group of ultra nationalists went crazy and did not mind destroying Ukraine in the process. The Donbass was a very productive industrial area.  So the Kiev faction wants to drive out most residents in the name of some mythological Ukraine that never existed.

I recall German military knew WWII was lost maybe after Stalingrad or Kursk. Hitler made them fight on to the end in some mythical glorious act of suicide. Surrender could have preserved much of Germany and other places.  Judge Nap has a guest LtCOL. Karen Kwiatkowski  who recently feared something similar happening in Ukraine.

Also, here is a counter argument getting a rare public hearing in EU. Video clip.
https://x.com/simpatico771/status/1912184617638977932
SIMPLICIUS ?
@simpatico771
??🇫🇷A French channel provokes the anger of Ukrainians.

On Saturday, April 12, former French Minister Luc Ferry made a series of statements which brutally contradict the usual propaganda:

We put how much? $350 billion in arms? [...] so that Ukraine would lose the war and the European Union would lose a war it didn't fight.
then

And I think it was Ukraine that started this war with the Donbass War, that's it. And that it was a monumental mistake to start a war against Russian-speaking people in the East in 2014, and that it couldn't end well. It's a catastrophe that was planned from 2014 onwards.
And finally:
the truth is that the Donbass war left almost 15,000 dead. It was atrocious; 6,000 civilians were massacred by abominable Ukrainian militias. And so it couldn't have ended well. […] Putin is not Hitler. […] He hasn't yet killed 6 million Jews. On the other hand, the Ukrainians were well on their way.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 12:00:51 PM by patentlymn »
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2911 on: April 18, 2025, 09:00:58 AM »
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2025/04/18/rubio-witkoff-and-kellogg-meet-with-french-president-macron-ukraine-and-uk-delegation-to-discuss-outline-of-ceasefire/

Well, if there is any foot-dragging by losers, it'll be happening there!

Ultimately, the “things decided” will be what President Trump and President Putin agree to.

Hopefully that holds.
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2912 on: April 18, 2025, 03:46:46 PM »

A short version video clip of how Ukraine was created by Soviets to prevent a return  rise of the white Russians.

https://t.me/putingers_cat_chat/545925
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2913 on: April 21, 2025, 08:26:02 AM »
Those unable to let go of the past are doomed to repeat it.

This less likely scenario IMO has the fatal flaw of time and patience...I don't see it.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/how-might-washingtons-relations-ukraine-russia-change-if-it-abandons-its-peace-efforts
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2914 on: April 21, 2025, 10:58:39 AM »
Whats the point? Where is the gain? Everybody needs a hobby I guess. I wonder if the leaders hope to get a promotion out of their small country.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/125196
At the same time, Ukraine and its supporters have promoted and carried out a cultural war against Russia. One of the top provocateurs is Estonia.

Estonia is the most northern of the Baltic states. It fronts on the Baltic Sea where its capital city, Tallinn, is located. Estonia’s town of Narva is just next to the border with Russia. About half of Narva’s population is Russian.

Estonia has a population of 1.37 million, based on data from 2023. Between 20-25% of Estonia’s population are Russians, depending on how the count is made.

For a number of years, Estonia has been waging a cultural war against Russia while at the same time utterly depending on NATO for its security. The Estonian army has only 7,700 active duty personnel, of which 3,500 are conscripts.

It has a reserve force that is significantly larger, but it does not have the equipment to support its reserves, so it is largely a paper force. Estonia has no air force to speak of, only two Czech-made (Aero Vodochody) L-39 trainers and two small M-28 Polish transports.

One would think that Estonia would not want to create trouble for itself, but it seems that the reverse is true, largely deriving from the Estonian belief that NATO is there to back it up and that Russia would not attack a NATO state.

Provocations are not something new for the Estonians, whose hate for Russians borders on the extreme. By practically denying citizenship to their Russian inhabitants to attacking the Russian Orthodox Church in Estonia through legislation, Estonia has made it clear it will do whatever it can to humiliate its own Russian population and Russia itself.


In April 2007, the Estonians decided to move the monument there known as the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. That monument also was the site of a number of graves of Soviet Russian soldiers who were killed fighting against the Nazis.

The graves were dug up, their families in Russia notified they could collect the remains or they would be relocated in the Tallinn military cemetery along with the monument.

Now, in 2025, we have another round of monument-busting, as the Estonians are tearing down Russian war memorials once again. This includes defiling Russian graves in the Tallinn military cemetery and damaging and destroying war memorials.

If there is one single unifying principle these days in Russia it is the great importance given to Russia’s decisive role in the defeat of Nazi armies in World War II. Each year, on May 9, Russia holds its annual Victory Day celebration, which focuses on a show of military power.

It is followed by a more somber but clearly important citizen’s march known as the Immortal Regiment. In this march, families proudly carry posters and photos of family members who perished in the Great Patriotic War (Russia’s terminology for World War II.)

Estonia’s show of contempt for Russia’s World War II victory, along with its spotty, some would say, compromised behavior supporting the Nazis, is increasingly irksome to the Russians.

One can add attempts to keep Russians living in Estonia from achieving citizenship or even voting in elections. Estonia has now stepped that up by adding new legislation to make it even more difficult for Russian residents to be treated equally.

Estonia is also trying to block out any relationship between Russian Orthodox Churches in Estonia to the Moscow Patriarchate. It is not surprising that Estonia’s actions parallel and were perhaps inspired by Ukraine, which is doing the same thing.

The Estonian action against the Moscow-led church would create revulsion and horror elsewhere if, for example, European or American Catholics were not allowed to communicate with the Pope in Rome.

Among the pro-war advocates in Europe, Estonia is at the forefront. Its former Prime Minister, Kaja Kallas, is now the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2915 on: April 21, 2025, 02:24:43 PM »
I begrudge nobody oppressed by a Communist dictatorship their dislike of the people who dominated them...

What do folks expect, heaps of praise for Russia?

 ::hysterical::

Besides, refighting past offenses does seem all the rage...just isn't proper to take sides...




« Last Edit: April 21, 2025, 03:11:21 PM by Libertas »
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2916 on: April 21, 2025, 02:45:52 PM »


Reminds  me of people who have boundary disputes with their neighbors and take it way too far.
The US is a declining super power with ADHD. These countries' leaders delight in poking the bear while the US is still paying attention. Maybe their leaders are hoping for some personal reward. IMO they should do what is best for them.

The Baltics were ruled by pothers except for between the world wars.  Now they are free again. I recall they lost lots of people after USSR.

I heard bankruptcies in Finland are way up. Seems there was a lot of commerce with Russia ruined by sanctions. EU is not doing well either thanks to their 'stunning and brave' leaders.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2917 on: April 21, 2025, 03:12:39 PM »
NIMBY so I have no fracks to give...
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2918 on: April 21, 2025, 04:03:17 PM »

I think it is best to educate the young in the Baltic language plus one world language. Let old farts like me die out.

in Georgia after USSR they taught Georgian and English instead of Georgian and Russian. But I think they waited a while to teach the English as recent protesters spoke terrible English. lder people spoke fluent Russian.

I Read a book Red Riviera, about tourism in Bulgaria during USSR. Women had to be fluent in 2 languages plus Bulgarian just to work the front hotel desks. After USSR they did just fine.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2919 on: April 21, 2025, 04:49:23 PM »


Since the USSR’s dissolution, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania lost 15–17%, 27–30%, and 23–25% of their populations, respectively, due to emigration, low fertility, and economic transitions. GDP per capita dropped 40–50% in the early 1990s but rebounded impressively, with PPP increases of 177% (Estonia), 215% (Latvia), and 245% (Lithuania) by 2020. EU integration, market reforms, and foreign investment drove recovery, though emigration and aging populations pose ongoing challenges.


The Baltic countries have seen dramatic PPP GDP per capita increases since 1990:
Estonia: 280–320% growth (from $8,000–$10,000 to $38,100–$41,800).

Latvia: 300–360% growth (from $7,000–$8,000 to $32,200–$35,500).

Lithuania: 350–400% growth (from $8,591 to $38,700–$42,800).

These gains reflect successful transitions to market economies, EU integration, and productivity improvements, far surpassing Soviet-era living standards despite initial economic collapses and ongoing demographic challenges.


When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown