Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine

[patentlymn]

Orban visited Zelensky in Kiev and Putin in Moscow. People had a hissy fit. Said he had no right. I cannot find all of it.

https://t.me/myLordBebo/36441
🇺🇦🇭🇺🇷🇺 The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry is outraged by Orban’s visit to Moscow, since it was not agreed upon with Kiev
— press service of the diplomatic department

LMAO … Ukraine wants the EU to ask for permission?

https://t.me/myLordBebo/36437
🇺🇸🇬🇧🇪🇺🇭🇺🇷🇺 Orban does not represent NATO in Moscow, but only his country — Stoltenberg

The hysteria around Orbans visit is kinda weird, what are they afraid of? Peace?

https://t.me/myLordBebo/36436
🇭🇺🇺🇦 Stoltenberg reminded Orban that “the territorial integrity of Ukraine must be respected”

https://t.me/myLordBebo/36401
🇪🇺🇷🇺 “Orban did not receive an EU mandate to visit Russia, Brussels excludes contacts with Moscow” said Borrell

From July 1, Hungary assumed the presidency of the Council of the EU for six months. After reports appeared about a possible visit of the Hungarian Prime Minister to Moscow, the head of the European Council, Charles Michel, said that Budapest does not have the authority to interact with Russia on behalf of the EU.

[patentlymn]

I can understand that many Ukr locals wanted side with the Germans in WWII against the Soviets. Killing most Jews, Poles, and Russians not so much. I have heard that history school books and the like are rewritten yearly in Ukr. This and similar teachings are not from WWII but today. The pro NAZI teachings are current.


https://t.me/heilukraine1959/9287
🇺🇦 Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

Ukrainian history school books:

"The honourable German forces liberated the occupied Lviv in 1941.."

[Libertas]

Those trapped in history are doomed.

[patentlymn]

I find this sub reddit interesting. IMO the question is a stupid question likely from an American.  Most of the answers to this question are complicated. The more I learn the more I think this whole divide of this war into Ukr vs Russia had dumbed people. IMO the creation of a "Ukrainian people" is very recent and kinda fake. The forcing of a Ukrainian language on people is recent. People cannot even agree on what language their ancestors spoke in modern day Ukraine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskARussian/comments/1dxvuha/are_there_any_immediate_ways_i_can_discern_a/
 Are there any immediate ways I can discern a Russian from a Ukrainian acquaintance?
Foreign

Please dont be offended, but to me, it's like trying to tell a Canadian from an American. Is it in the last name? Ending with "kov" I'd think is Russian, right? Or could that be Ukrainian also? Just don't want to assume incorrectly and offend someone with how tense things are at the moment...

Any leading questions I can ask that would tell me someone's nationality between the two, without outright asking? Just don't want to ask the wrong thing and cause a problem.

SOME RESPONSES BELOW

nuclear_silver
•
11h ago

As a person of both ancestries who lived in both countries long enough I'd say that In general it's impossible to distinguish without asking the person or his friends/relatives.


Affectionate_Ad_9687
•
10h ago
• Edited 10h ago
Saint Petersburg

There are tons of discussions in Ukranian activist twitter on a topic "how to make Ukranian refugees in Europe speak Ukranian?" (Absolute majority of the refugees keeps speaking Russian, which gravely upsets the said activists).

One of the most popular arguments always is "tell them - if we meet you on the street, how can we know that you are not a Russian?"

Meaning, that even for Ukranians themsleves there is no reliable way for distinguish, unless the person states it explicitly.



ShadowGoro
•
2h ago

Thats complicated. Both russian and ukranian propaganda say that there two languages in Ukraine, russian and ukranian. The truth is that there are at least 3 of them. And the 3rd one, called surzhik, is a mix of russian and ukranian languages (and also it was popular before in the south of Russia)
Russia sees surzhik as a dialect of Russian, Ukraine sees surzhik as a dialect of Ukranian.
So you need to remember it when you see percentage of usage languages in Ukraine
Thats the first what I wanted to mention. The second: There are 2 ukranian languages, the old one, language of Shevchenko, and new born artifically made funny odd job. I understand classic Ukranian without any problems, but not the words they invented since end of 1980s.
And the third. Bolsheviks after revolutuion forced people in eastern part of Ukraine to switch from surzhik to Ukranian. I suppose grandpa of your gf was born after 1920



Humphrey_Wildblood
•
6h ago

First off, it's not anything like Canada vs. US. In Kyiv you can go to any cafe (2018) and order in Russian or in Ukrainian and the waiter doesn't flinch with misunderstanding. In Odesa it's pretty much only in Russian (from my experience). But in Lviv it's entirely different. Zero Russian. Very similar to Polish and Czech. There is also a sociolect - surzhyk - which many think is Ukrainian. It most definitely is not. Then there's another pre-Soviet Ukrainian language that you can hear in Canada. Some would argue that this is pure metropole Ukrainian (like Moravian to Prague Czech). Locals in Ukraine consider it to be a peasant sounding language. My boss from MIT spoke it and couldn't understand a word in Russian. In 1998 the only people who spoke Ukrainian in Kyiv were produce sellers (farmers) and secretaries of Western banks and law firms.

[Libertas]

Dude, they were never allowed to be independent or develop their own language or culture...by Muscovites, Mongols, Hapsburgs, Poles, Russians...

What exactly do you hope to achieve by harping on Ukrainian domination by others?  As someone with Ruthenian heritage it annoys me.

Nobody speaks many Indian dialects here either...should Caucasians celebrate that and spike it in their faces?

There's other modern/made up nations too, lets f**k them over too, OK?

[Libertas]

At least somebody cares about peace on the continent...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/07/pray-peace-orbans-peace-mission-continues-beijing-next/

[patentlymn]

Dude, they were never allowed to be independent or develop their own language or culture...by Muscovites, Mongols, Hapsburgs, Poles, Russians...

What exactly do you hope to achieve by harping on Ukrainian domination by others?  As someone with Ruthenian heritage it annoys me.

Nobody speaks many Indian dialects here either...should Caucasians celebrate that and spike it in their faces?

There's other modern/made up nations too, lets f**k them over too, OK?

Promoting ethnic hatred is against the law in Russia. It is state policy in Ukr. Promoting NAZI ideology is illegal in Germany, Poland, Russia, and elsewhere. In social media some Ukr immigrant mom  recently  asked for legal help. Her son was drawing swastikas at school maybe in Germany. He was assessed a fine. The mom wanted legal help as he had done nothing wrong. This stuff is common in Ukr. Current Ukr text books describe WWII Germans as liberators. One side is pushing this hatred not the other, if you listen to them. That is who they are so why deny it?

I have always been interested in different cultures and how they differ. Not always a PC subject. I always wondered why places in the US varied so much when it came to behaviors and people.

The leading books included over a foot of shelf space by Thomas Sowell on ethnic groups, races, and cultures world wide. Ethnic America was in my top 5 or 3 books of ll time. Scandinavians did not get their own chapter but Germans did. Also Chinese, Japanese and others. Albion's Seed was great and explained many of the differences in US regions I noticed. The Geography of Thought gave a theory on why Chinese reliably test different on what they observe than others.

Balkan Ghosts said that every hectare in the Balkans was once ruled by at least 4 different groups and many would like to make their group rule again.

I have watched many video blogs and noticed things.

Older people in Georgia learned Georgian and Russian in school. Now Georgian and English. People in villages often learn a local language also.

Sokh District is a district of Uzbekistan's Fergana Region. It consists of two exclaves of Uzbekistan, surrounded by Kyrgyzstan. People in Sokh speak Tajik (not Uzbek) and educate their children in that language. Bald stumbled into an English class there.

Wikipedia says Dagestan has 14 official languages and 13 ethnic groups.

I learned that the world is a complicated place. There is something to be said for getting along.

Then I look into Ukr and what people on both sides say and do. I cannot figure out who these Ukr and Russians are. Neither can the Russians  I hear Ukr war described as a cowboy movie. The cowboys with the black hats are the bad Russians who speak Russian and the guys with the white hats are Ukrainians who speak Ukrainian. Ukr people are ethnically and genetically superior Europeans and the Russians are Mongol Slavs.  None of this stands up to any scrutiny. Not the  language part or the genetics part.  It is part of the NAZI cool-aid one faction drank.

[patentlymn]

As I said I watch video blogs. This one was fed to me and likely is similar to the Ukr language issue.

Eli goes to  Kyrgyzstan and asks locals about the language. Some did not speak it because it was regarded as a peasant language but more speak it now.

Eli grew up in Perm learning Tatar and Russian. She let her Tatar lapse just because. Her mom did not like that. Her mom is not a peasant but an MD. Eli then learned English, Italian, maybe Spanish. Eli went to school in US for one year then  taught English in Vietnam as she is that good. No one forced her

I bet that Uighur kids may focus on Mandarin for the opportunities. International languages of empires often win out. English is the best example. Many kids are dropping Russian for English.

https://youtu.be/X00rgfID8dI?t=196

[Libertas]

Dude, they were never allowed to be independent or develop their own language or culture...by Muscovites, Mongols, Hapsburgs, Poles, Russians...

What exactly do you hope to achieve by harping on Ukrainian domination by others?  As someone with Ruthenian heritage it annoys me.

Nobody speaks many Indian dialects here either...should Caucasians celebrate that and spike it in their faces?

There's other modern/made up nations too, lets f**k them over too, OK?

Promoting ethnic hatred is against the law in Russia. It is state policy in Ukr. Promoting NAZI ideology is illegal in Germany, Poland, Russia, and elsewhere. In social media some Ukr immigrant mom  recently  asked for legal help. Her son was drawing swastikas at school maybe in Germany. He was assessed a fine. The mom wanted legal help as he had done nothing wrong. This stuff is common in Ukr. Current Ukr text books describe WWII Germans as liberators. One side is pushing this hatred not the other, if you listen to them. That is who they are so why deny it?

I have always been interested in different cultures and how they differ. Not always a PC subject. I always wondered why places in the US varied so much when it came to behaviors and people.

The leading books included over a foot of shelf space by Thomas Sowell on ethnic groups, races, and cultures world wide. Ethnic America was in my top 5 or 3 books of ll time. Scandinavians did not get their own chapter but Germans did. Also Chinese, Japanese and others. Albion's Seed was great and explained many of the differences in US regions I noticed. The Geography of Thought gave a theory on why Chinese reliably test different on what they observe than others.

Balkan Ghosts said that every hectare in the Balkans was once ruled by at least 4 different groups and many would like to make their group rule again.

I have watched many video blogs and noticed things.

Older people in Georgia learned Georgian and Russian in school. Now Georgian and English. People in villages often learn a local language also.

Sokh District is a district of Uzbekistan's Fergana Region. It consists of two exclaves of Uzbekistan, surrounded by Kyrgyzstan. People in Sokh speak Tajik (not Uzbek) and educate their children in that language. Bald stumbled into an English class there.

Wikipedia says Dagestan has 14 official languages and 13 ethnic groups.

I learned that the world is a complicated place. There is something to be said for getting along.

Then I look into Ukr and what people on both sides say and do. I cannot figure out who these Ukr and Russians are. Neither can the Russians  I hear Ukr war described as a cowboy movie. The cowboys with the black hats are the bad Russians who speak Russian and the guys with the white hats are Ukrainians who speak Ukrainian. Ukr people are ethnically and genetically superior Europeans and the Russians are Mongol Slavs.  None of this stands up to any scrutiny. Not the  language part or the genetics part.  It is part of the NAZI cool-aid one faction drank.

Great, bunch of hate-filled nazis.  Feel better about yourself?  How does trhis advance "peace"?

I think a more effective means of achieving peace would be if Russia would stop bumping uglies with the worst regimes on the planet...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/south-koreas-yoon-seeks-convince-nato-pyongyangs-distinct-threat-europe

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-poland-has-committed-shooting-down-russian-missiles-over-ukraine-territory

...their actions just drive people into stronger reactions against them...

...but West always bad, Russia always good, eh?

Seems to me the hatred of the ruling class for all concerned is viable and all are impelled to repel the other no matter what.  Got a realistic solution to that?

[patentlymn]

I do not spend lots of time on this but occasionally try to get answers. To my surprise, written Russian was standardized hundreds of years ago, but some say not complete until after the revolution. No Idea if 0.1% or 10% were literate.  Also, very few accents which vary across Russia, compared to the US when I grew up. Both surprised me because of 11 time zones.

Because of the Ukr language issue I looked into that. The USSR educated more students in Ukr language in 1920s than in previous 100 years then stopped as I recall. They tried to force a standard Ukr language on students but apparently it did not take.  I hear things like no one speaking Ukr in  public in Kiev 20 -30 years ago. 

My impression of Ukr language is that it is non-standard and  incomplete. Now Kiev went crazy and declares war on Russian language and tries to force Ukr language on everyone. Some countries replace Russian with English in schools and let time take it course.

I see videos from Uighur places with signs in Uighur script and Mandarin. Even the CCP is not crazy enough to tear down the Uighur signs. Mao and the Red Guards were that crazy and worse.

Indigenous people get shoved aside and their cultures and languages replaced by those of empires. Sometimes by force. Sometimes because kids see opportunities.

[Libertas]

Guess that was a no...

Anyway, more consequentially...see this?

It appears the lines are being drawn and the alliances are taking shape for the great global conflict that is taking shape.

This never would be happening under a Trump administration.

China and Belarus are holding military exercises near the Polish and Ukrainian border. The military exercises started on Monday and will include counter-terrorism missions. They are expected to last 11 days.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/07/wwiii-watch-china-belarus-hold-joint-military-exercises/

Last time there were "exercises" near the Ukrainian border by Russia...an invasion occurred...

[patentlymn]

Seems to me the hatred of the ruling class for all concerned is viable and all are impelled to repel the other no matter what.  Got a realistic solution to that?

I did not understand this question.

[Libertas]

Seems to me the hatred of the ruling class for all concerned is viable and all are impelled to repel the other no matter what.  Got a realistic solution to that?

I did not understand this question.

Just trying to reconcile all your posts with a practical solution.

[Libertas]

More good news...if you like a wider war...

NATO’s leaders are set to approve a separate command at Wiesbaden, Germany, to coordinate training and equipment donations to Kyiv’s forces, a senior administration official told reporters last week.

The command will have about 700 personnel from NATO countries and partner nations assigned to the center, an alliance news release said. The administration officials, speaking to the press Friday, said the center would increase the interoperability among Ukrainian forces and NATO.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/new-nato-command-will-assist-ukraine-training-equipment-donations

Meanwhile, Russia moans about rampant Russophobia...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-rules-out-all-nuclear-talks-us-until-washington-adopts-sane-approach

 

Whatever.  Not everybody suffers from that, just demonazis and cucks.  I as an individual despise all forms of thuggery.

Regardless, everybody on every side of this still want to fight, so fight they will.

[Libertas]

A growing number of Russians are expressing readiness to support Vladimir Putin's potential use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. According to recent surveys by the Levada Centre, approximately 34 percent of respondents – slightly more than one in three – would either definitely or likely approve of the use of nuclear arms in the conflict.
https://www.naturalnews.com/2024-07-09-russians-approve-use-of-nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine.html

Very bullish for greater chances of an expanded and deadlier confrontation.

[Libertas]

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/07/russia-hoax-2-0-anonymous-intel-officials-claim/

That dog don't hunt no more, dipsh*ts!

[patentlymn]

The longer I look into the details of Ukr lots of stuff seems off or fake.

Three top Ukr brass are bugged and the tape released. All 3 generals spoke in Russian.
A very recent video clip shows some Ukr troops in battle speaking Ukr. After a shell hits they panic and revert to Russian.
It appears that much of the Ikr language was recently invented in the past few decades?

This is a good discussion where the Russian respondents say it is almost impossible to tell a Ukrainian from a Russian without asking them. The funny response is to ask them who Crimea belongs to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskARussian/comments/1dxvuha/are_there_any_immediate_ways_i_can_discern_a/

[patentlymn]

In this Ukr war I spent a lot of time trying to learn who the players were and what the issues were. Many things did not make sense in many ways.

Here is how I see the language issue. I could be wrong about much but I tried. Russian was and is the language of the Ukr elite, city dwellers, and professionals. RU is the native language of Zelensky who spoke or still speaks crappy Ukr. More common in east than west. Ukr seems to be not standardized, more rural than urban,, and incomplete. Ukr speakers who left for years have some problems understanding Ukr language when they return because of new words.

So the govt takes RU books from schools and replaces them with Ukr books many teachers cannot read. The govt fines people for speaking RU and destroys RU books. Meanwhile Ukr generals conduct meetings in RU. Some Kiev troops speak Ukr on combat videos but revert to RU under stress. This sounds screwy to me. As if they are trying to enforce some idealized version of Ukr that does not exist.

I'll bet the Chinese govt officials speak Mandarin.

[Libertas]

This is obviously the Trump Effect...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-suddenly-reverses-says-russia-should-attend-2nd-ukraine-summit

...and he is trying to get out front...

Frankly, as soon as Trump is elected if Z had any sense he would schedule elections and look for an exit/retirement plan.

In other news...

On Saturday, the head of Ukraine’s military intelligence claimed that there had been several attempts at assassinating Russian President Vladimir Putin.

"There have been [attempts to assassinate Putin], but as you can see, they have been unsuccessful so far," said Kyrylo Budanov, the head of Ukraine’s Main Directorate of Intelligence, known as the GUR.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-there-have-been-attempts-assassinate-putin

Pretty sure this is coming out now in an effort to cease any further attempts being contemplated...and pretty sure Trump will not look kindly on that sort of bullsh*t.

I'm no Putin-lover...but we and people we support should not be in the assassination game as a general policy...

As for this...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russian-tv-threatens-european-capitals-long-range-missiles

...threatening idiots isn't going to have the desired effect, they'll just point and say it reaffirms their worst fears...

But, whatever...people under blood lust are incapable of regulating their mouths...

[patentlymn]

I struggle to understand many parts of this Ukr war. I kinda understand the language thing and it seems kinda fake based on only pro Kiev sources.

I had some youtube political stuff on to fall asleep but it was not boring enough. Some Ukr author was on who wrote a book or two.
He went into great details on the build up to the war.

In short, the far right build up in Ukr was not based on a popular will but a mostly western Ukr agrarian movement based on an idealized Ukr nation and volk that never really existed  but should exist if only the Ukr people would vote the right way. Some of these leaders came from Canadian Ukr ex pats who returned. Most such ex pats who moved to Canada had zero interest int this or NAZIs and just wanted to farm in Manitoba but the true believers took over the diaspora organizations and longed for the glory days.

Therefore it was necessary to get rid of democracy as people kept voting wrong. Around half the Ukr pop voted the wrong way. That was a major motivation for the 2014 coup. This group had political power but not much in the way of financial power until a few oligarchs joined to take advantage.

It reminded me of 1930s Germany and some idealized German volk and popular will. I was reminded that maybe only 15 pct of US pop wanted to to break with Britain around 1976 but they prevailed.

The US govt backs crazies to do regime change. Moderates do not do the job.  In Syria it was AQ and ISIS, Islamocrazies. In Ukr it was NAZI wanna be crazies. So the Ukr crazies got the US money.

In terms of lineage I do not think there is much in the way of pure anything in that region. IN AskaRussian sub reddit some apparent American asked how to tell if someone was Ukrainian or Russian maybe to avoid insulting them..  The only answer was you have to ask them and even self IDed Ukr cannot tell without asking.